Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[DrPraetorious]

The problem is that we are not in agreement that glamour nations are overpowered. You have asserted that they are, and I have disagreed, I will summarize:

a) It is fair for some nations to be stronger early on, and some nations stronger later.

b) It is fair for some tactics to be easier to use. This, I think, is where the "newbies play vanheim" argument has merit. I don't think glamour rushers are actually more likely to win, even in highly experienced hands, but the double bless strategy is accessible, so it allows new players to at least participate in big MP games, and have some measure of success. You may not like being axed by my little sister on turn 9 with her pretty magic horsies - but somebody is going to get eliminated early and you can at least take it like a man.

c) It is fair for people to be eliminated on turn 8, especially if they adopt a long term strategy. Taking a dormant pretender with good scales and strong diversifying magic should be a calculated risk, with significant risk of death before your god even reappears - vs. for example taking a great sage with a lot of early research or a supercombatant, either of which goes a long way towards repulsing a rusher.

d) It is fair to expect the other players to devote 100% of their effort to repulsing an attack from you, provided you devote 100% of your effort to attacking them. It is fair if strategies exist that will successfully kill your first neighbor 75% of the time, even under such a state of total war, provided that the rusher expects to suffer sufficient losses to allow other players to take advantage of their weakness, most of the time.

e) The game is meant to be balanced on medium sized maps. On postage stamp maps rushers have to be better, because otherwise they'd be weaker on larger maps.

f) It is fair that the game has a significant element of chance. Being next to a rusher position stinks - the only way to make it not-stink is to make all rush strategies worthless, because even when you repulse a rush, you probably suffer losses such that winning is a lot less likely.

There is a problem that I am willing to admit may exist: some nations may be unable to resist the glamour rush at all. It's all well and good to say "rock, paper, scissors" but no pairing of nations should be so unbalanced that you might as well give up - unless you pursued a long term strategy in which case you took your chances and it didn't work, sucks to be you.

If that is the case, those specific nations should be given new tools so that they have means of repulsing glamour rush - NOT a majority of the time (since then glamour rushing would become an unviable strategy) but a significant fraction of the time.

I think that the main game should be altered, if it is altered at all, with the same philosophy. Since it is possible for you to make a mod that nerfs glamour rushers - if this is what you want to do, do it. You can make a much more convincing argument for incorporating such a nerf into the main game if you're willing to take the ten minutes to script it yourself, and then post what you consider to be more balanced results, than if you just, to be blunt, whine about what vague changes someone else should be making. If you can make a "nerf" that leaves glamour rushing as a viable but not, to your mind, overwhelming strategy, great. If I agree with you that it doesn't unacceptably weaken glamour rushes in my games, I'll support including it in the main fork. If it doesn't get it, you'll have your mod and you can try and find opponents who agree with you and play against them.

[BigJMoney]

Guys, can I please weigh back in for a moment? I left this post behind me and it exploded, leaving shrapnel (no pun intended) all over my back.

Okay, I have to agree with all of Graeme's points for once, even if I don't agree with him breaking forum protocol so regularly. (Grame, trust me, I have a feeling you are going to get into some trouble if you can't be more polite). I agree that Vanheim and Ermor's overall power are completely overlooked by the developers, even though Doms 3 is a great game. NT Jedi, I'm sorry but you've had each one of your points about strategy game balance shredded to pieces, yet you still maintain your position. I don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that balance is a positive thing. Balance does not have to mean a lack of diversity, options or strategy.

Which brings me to my response to all this. DrPraetorious, I don't know which version of Magic: The Gathering you are talkng about, but I have played many, many, many tabletop and card strategy game and I always come back to Magic because it is one of the most robust and well crafted complex strategy games in the world. There are plenty of cool and powerful cards (ridiculously powerful) in MtG, but each of them requires some kind of sacrifice in order to field that kind of power. There are cards that can make you win the game instantly, but even the most powerul ones all have their requirements.

DrPraetorious, you seem to have the strongest defense in favor of leaving Vanheim alone, so let me challenge you. You made a lot of very valuable points in your last post, but the problem is that they don't apply to this situation. Let me exlain what I'm thinking.

a) It is fair for some nations to be stronger early on, and some nations stronger later.

Yes, this creates a diversity of strategy in the game.

b) It is fair for some tactics to be easier to use. ... I don't think glamour rushers are actually more likely to win [over all], even in highly experienced hands, but the double bless strategy is accessible, so it allows new players to at least participate in big MP games, and have some measure of success.

I'll remark on this potentially being a good point, except that for Vanheim it doesn't work the way you seem to imagine it. Let us do something here, Doctor. Let us pretend that every nation has something called a "Power Strategy" (PStrat). Some nations' PStrats are easier to field, while others require the experience and skill of the veteran to make work. Assuming that all PStrats are at least somewhat balanced, this would be quite a yummy aspect of the game. Many games are balanced in this way -- PC and live games. As you say, it gives new players the ability to at least be competitive, yet not necessarily guaranteeing them the win. For this to work, however, you have to be careful to make sure that the easy to use PStrats can not be further empowered by the more skilled players, turning them into something we shall call (for the sake of discussion) an "OverPowered Strategy" (OStrat). PStrats are good; OStrats are bad. The point people seem to be making in this thread, and I tend to agree, is that Vanheim (and in other news, Ermor...) utilize OStrats, not merely easy to discover PStrats.

c) It is fair for people to be eliminated on turn 8, especially if they adopt a long term strategy.

d) [...]

e) [...]

f) [...]

Yes, rushing is quite legitimate, even if newbies can do it. I hope nobody argues with you here, because the topic of this thead is not called "Should Rushing Be Allowed?". It's about whether Vanheim should nerfed. If Vanheim's rush happens to be an OStrat, then Vanheim should be nerfed, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to field a PStrat rush strategy.

There is a problem that I am willing to admit may exist: some nations may be unable to resist the glamour rush at all. It's all well and good to say "rock, paper, scissors" but no pairing of nations should be so unbalanced that you might as well give up[...]

Precise and congent.

I think that the main game should be altered, if it is altered at all, with the same philosophy.

Exactly. I like NT Jedi just fine, and I have nothing but positive things to say about his forum contributions, but I do think it's counter-prodctive to reply to peoples' concerns with "If you don't like it, MOD it." Not only is that an ideal that ends opinions and discussion; not only is it an ideal that promotes the notion the game is perfect as it is; but it also goes without saying. Of course, if we, the community, think the game needs fixing, we will mod it. That's what the Conceptual Balance series is all about. But because of DrPraetorious' points above, we shouldn't have to do too much to allow ourselves a fun MP experience.

Finally, let me throw a bone of discussion back into the pit

I've seen blade wind and archers mentioned as a counter to Vanheim. When I originally asked the question that embodies this thread, it was if Vaheim needs nerfing, in general. You see, I don't pick F9W9; nor do I rush. I choose Air magic for Vanheim. Not only does an A10 bless give high air shield to my Vans, but it also gives me the spell that turns the entire world stormy for the mid/late game. This further reduces the effect of missiles against me. So, as you can see, my sacred troops are never afraid of missile counters. That is easily prevented by Vanheim.

=$=

Play nice, children!!

[NTJedi]

BigJMoney said:
NT Jedi, I'm sorry but you've had each one of your points about strategy game balance shredded to pieces, yet you still maintain your position. I don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that balance is a positive thing.

The game has balance and since there's over FIFTY nations within the game this means there's plenty of room for a few to be very powerful since each game does not need to have Vanheim/Helheim. My points have been responded with statements which basically say, "We want Vanheim Nerfed for our MP games and others which don't like the changes can go use mods". Basically they don't want to mod their multiplayer games.

Two nations out of fifty nations can be powerful... since the host of every game has the option to remove them. (ex=#allowedplayer)

[DrPraetorious]

If you are going to propose altering the game, write a mod that carries your alterations, that's all I'm saying.

It's true that you can't nerf glamour directly - but you can nerf all the units that *have* glamour - I recall lowering their protection was proposed at one point. You can make them cost more gold. You can lower their combat stats. You can make them trade their light lances for swords or axes. There are all sorts of things you can try doing, and we can load up the mod and see how it affects the various sources of complaint.

Personally, I don't think anyone has made a persuasive argument that the glamour rushers are stronger positions than the other double-bless rushers - Abyssia is my favorite, by I think a double-blessed Niefelheim is probably the strongest, and Niefelheim has some of the best (if most expensive) magic even in the early era. Since I find the argument that glamour troops are uniquely broken (as opposed to the other double-bless rushers) unconvincing, I'm not inclined to code this up myself.

Now, the counters to these nations are more obvious, perhaps, than the counters to glamour, but they are every bit as capable of early expansion - in SP I've always expanded faster as Neifelheim with a 9N dragon than as Helheim with a 9W dragon.

On the subject of making light infantry irrelevant - a spell with a large area of effect that does ~3 damage is less of a threat to light infantry (since they usually live) than existing spells like falling foo, let alone blade wind.

On the other hand, it is death to vans (since they almost always lose their images,) and you can legitimately put it earlier in the research tree, especially as a national spell.

So if you're worried about vanheim's rush, as opposed to other rushes, you can fix that by giving a low damage area of effect spell to the nations most vulnerable to the rush - which probably isn't Caelum, but Caelum has other problems.

If, on the other hand, you are concerned about rushers period, see my original post.

[Villan]

DrPraetorious said:

Personally, I don't think anyone has made a persuasive argument that the glamour rushers are stronger positions than the other double-bless rushers - Abyssia is my favorite, by I think a double-blessed Niefelheim is probably the strongest, and Niefelheim has some of the best (if most expensive) magic even in the early era. Since I find the argument that glamour troops are uniquely broken (as opposed to the other double-bless rushers) unconvincing, I'm not inclined to code this up myself.

Glamour rushers are still good late game because opponents can't see them on map, and they are great raiders. Niefelheim or Abyssia aren't, so it can be argued that they actually do trade early game power for late game power.

[UninspiredName]

Consider the following situation. The Pantokrator, in all his un-vanished glory, was added (By the devs, of course) as a pretender for, let's say Mictlan. They have a lot of sacreds. Pantokrator had 10 in every magic path, cost 0 points, and started with a Dominion Strength of 4. Don't even get me started on attributes. This would, naturally, be ridiculous, but one pretender counts for much less 'of the game' than the 2% Vanheim does. That pretender could be easilly banned, but many out there prefer to allow all options if possible. Why is it that parts of the game that unbalance it are our problem? Also, say that people did ban Vanheim. Turning the nation into something balanced would, effectively, be same as adding another nation, though it would take less work. And it makes the game feel more solid overall.

At one point in this thread, more than once, both sides have told each-other that, if they don't like change/the way things are, just make a mod. However, only true modding masterpieces could ever be as in-step with the rest of the game as something the developers created. Really, though, when it all comes down to it, it needs to be seen what the majority is. If only two people dislike Vanheim, they can't very well tell everyone else to make a mod. Unfortunately, it's much harder to tell here whether most prefer mods or not.

I haven't ever used, or experienced a Vanheim rush, though it ticks me off in principle, so I'll leave arguing whether or not it's actually unbalanced up to you lot. Still, if it is unbalanced, there's little reason for the developers not to fix it.

[Gandalf Parker]

regular moderator warning
The devs are interested in this thread. So please do not endanger it. Discuss the subject, do not discuss each other.

[BigJMoney]

Since my post was long and I had less obvious statements to make, Dominions does not effectively have 50 nations. It only has 17- that can be compared to each other at one time. Thus, if Vanheim is unbalanced, it is potentially unbalanced x3. I imagine you to be excitedly dancing around with the number 50 as if that fact alone makes a valid point, when it's irrelevant. But, I'll admit, nobody had commented on that point yet.

And if you don't cease with the "but the problem can be worked around" arguments, it may drive some of the people in this thread to jump out a window to their deaths, or get banned for flaming. Offering unlikeable workarounds instead of arguing ideas will offend people. Nixing Vanheim from multiplayer is a lazy, unimaginative and undesirable workaround -- not a solution. As DrPraetorious stated, it should be just fine for there to exist nations which have powerful strategies that are easy to make use of, as long as they are ultimately well-balanced with other nations' powerful strategies. You can have your cake and eat it too, NT. You seem to think that for there to be easy nations for newbies to play that it requires the game to be unbalanced; which is false. Look at the Mortal Kombat series of games as an example.

=$=

[Edited for sharpness]

[NTJedi]

BigJMoney said:
Since my post was long and I had less obvious statements to make, Dominions does not effectively have 50 nations. It only has 17- that can be compared to each other at one time. Thus, if Vanheim is unbalanced, it is potentially unbalanced x3. I imagine you to be excitedly dancing around with the number 50 as if that fact alone makes a valid point, when it's irrelevant.

Not irrelevant... even from your statement Vanheim is only one of seventeen nations during an era. So all this noise over one nation when so many other nations are available. It's like a sultan complaining one of the 17 girls in his harem are fat instead of enjoying the other 16. If vanheim is so highly desired as a "MUST HAVE" for gaming a small mod can be made available for the multiplayer gamers.

BigJMoney said:
Offering unlikeable workarounds instead of arguing ideas will offend people. Nixing Vanheim from multiplayer is a lazy, unimaginative and undesirable workaround -- not a solution.

I have provided other optional suggestions besides nixing Vanheim from multiplayer. Heck if desired I'll even create the Vanheim nerf mod for the multiplayer gamers. No reason for the developers to take away time working on patches to NERF wack a powerful nation which any gamer can do in a MOD. Fixing bugs/crashes should be the primary focus of the patches, adding new nations and new content a close second not balance tweaking stats/units of nations.

BigJMoney said:
As DrPraetorious stated, it should be just fine for there to exist nations which have powerful strategies that are easy to make use of, as long as they are ultimately well-balanced with other nations' powerful strategies. You can have your cake and eat it too, NT.

Thus that's why we have Helheim.

BigJMoney said:
You seem to think that for there to be easy nations for newbies to play that it requires the game to be unbalanced; which is false. Look at the Mortal Kombat series of games as an example.

It does not require the game to be unbalanced, however it does help. Whether you examine the nations individually since they can be all played on the same game(see Gandalf) or whether you examine the nations by era... it's less than 8% of the nations available. The developers can spend their time more wisely fixing known bugs instead of tweaking one or two nations that gamers can MOD on their own.

BigJMoney said:Finally, let me throw a bone of discussion back into the pit

I've seen blade wind and archers mentioned as a counter to Vanheim. When I originally asked the question that embodies this thread, it was if Vaheim needs nerfing, in general. You see, I don't pick F9W9; nor do I rush. I choose Air magic for Vanheim. Not only does an A10 bless give high air shield to my Vans, but it also gives me the spell that turns the entire world stormy for the mid/late game. This further reduces the effect of missiles against me. So, as you can see, my sacred troops are never afraid of missile counters. That is easily prevented by Vanheim.

=$=

Play nice, children!!

I think making glamour ineffective against all kinds of ranged attack would do a great deal to balance the issue. I don't think they are overpowered in general, though overpowered when played as heavily blessed nations since they don't really have to sacrifice enough for the amount of power they gain in the early game.
Also, one kind of cookiecutter defense that works against pretty much everything is also unbalanced. There needs to be some weakness to offset that.
And no, increased costs are no such weakness, since troops that are lot better at surviving will recoup those costs very, very quickly.