Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Foodstamp]

If the devs are watching, please consider introducing very effective counter units to underperforming nations instead of nerfing the nations in question!

[Gandalf Parker]

If the devs agree with that assessment then Im sure they will consider it.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, second day. I decide to drop Atlantis (Atlantis, despite having lots of advantages over Helheim doesn't stand up sacred to sacred, only due to the fact that you can't produce sacred living pillars nearly fast enough. I'm certain that Atlantis has lots of ways to beat Helheim, but not in a blitz. That doesn't mean that Atlantis conveniently folds before SP Helheim W/F, it just means that all day I kept doing poorly when I played poorly, aka at the level of normal AI, fighting Helheim on it's terms. In a Multiplayer, the Living Pillars and the ocean home province should and most likely would ensure that Atlantis remains untroubled by quick blitz.)

So, since the experienced players and regulars with more posts than me seem to agree that Tien Ch'i generally and Spring and Autumn in particular is one of the weakest, sorries, no hope nations out there, I spent today playing them vs Helheim, again on their terms, on land, with a high-bless strategy (in this case D10/B9/F4), vs Helheim W9/F9 Father of Winters Dom10, Order3, Magic -2, Cold1 etc as recommended in an above post.

I promptly beat Helheim like a red-headed stepchild.

I captured their home province in the first 6 months, successfully defended it, demolished their fortress, raised a province defense of 105, and finally gave up playing the game so that I wouldn't have to experience my very first total victory with a test game.

Now for the critics: I realise this is SP. This is also the first time I've ever played Tien Ch'i, so I don't have the advantage of nation familiarity. It's on a small map-intentionally, both because supposedly Helheim starts strong and gives good blitz, and because my strategy for dealing with them is to find their home province and take it out, killing their god in the process, which I did many times. AI was on normal. Basically I discovered a few things. 1-cheap troops with length 6 pikes are very effective against Helheim. 2-death bless 10 gives hearts like crazy, combined with added attack, 2 attacks per round, and death curse horror marking, I usually killed the few Hangedrotts leading whichever army without a hitch. I could produce 16 sacred troops for every 1 Hangedrott, and I did better than that because my scales were better, even though until the last big land-grab, Helheim had twice my overall territory. 3-composite bows help. They're not all that, but they take out some glamour, not as good as my warriors of 5 elements though. In the end, it came down to massed, cheap, pike. Helheim simply couldn't get to me before I got to them.
It was pitiful.

Now, in MP games, better strategies are going to be used by both sides, yes, but in MP games one knows one's playing vs a human, and one tends to think more deeply on both sides. Helheim has powerful mage/warriors in the Hangedrott, but Tien Ch'i has just as powerful mages, who are much, much more flexible, and who cost far less. Tien Ch'i comes ready-made with rainbow mages who can find almost all the special sites, and masses of those truly evil pike in combination with Tien Ch'is other national troops are enough to hold territory from Helheim.

Result of the day: Tien Ch'i 1, Helheim 0

[Corwin]

HoneyBadger said:

So, since the experienced players and regulars with more posts than me seem to agree that Tien Ch'i generally and Spring and Autumn in particular is one of the weakest, sorries, no hope nations out there, I spent today playing them vs Helheim, again on their terms, on land, with a high-bless strategy (in this case D10/B9/F4), vs Helheim W9/F9 Father of Winters Dom10, Order3, Magic -2, Cold1 etc as recommended in an above post.

Tien chi *what*? Who told you that? I am playing EA Tien Chi in our forum game, and my main arch enemy is Helheim. (who is played by very good player BTW). Just this turn I've smashed 300 strong army of Helheim which included a lot of sacred, using 200 strong army of my own, and Helheim is currently losing the war. (granted, it's not 1 vs 1 war since Helheim was allied with Ulm, and I was allied with Caelum. However this was the first real battle that Helheim fought in our war, and Helheim has been preparing for this battle for many turns. And before the war started Helheim was by far the most powerful nation on all graphes except one - they hold almost twice as many provinces as nation number two for example).

Perhaps you are confusing Dom2 S&A Tien Chi with Dom3 EA Tien Chi? In Dom2 S&A Tien Chi was pathetic, it's true. In dom3 they can be quite strong nation, if played right. Sure, their sacred are not nearly as strong as Hehleim's sacred, and would lose 1 vs 1 short blitz. But they are very far from "the weakest, sorries, no hope nation out there", as you put it.


Seriously, I would realy recommend you to play some MP. Your conclusions of nations strengths and weaknesses based upon your SP experience are often very far from reality when it comes to MP. Humans plays very differntly from AIs.