Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Inigo Montoya]

UninspiredName said:
Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers.

The problem is they are twice as expensive as chariots, only compounding the disparity.

[Inigo Montoya]

FrankTrollman said:
That test doesn't really show anything, since Chariots are part of a larger strategy. A single trample effect causes small amounts of damage to everything trampled, so it ends glamor effects. That means that the big scary "they all have glamor!" is over and they are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows.

Mr Trollman,

How about you set up a battle and run it? So far, everyone who has tried to fight a vanjarl + 25 van army has demonstrated they are overpowered. Please don't talk about your theories. Let's see some evidence. Feel free to utilize your level 2 AOE spells because I think that is quite reasonable. How about using Arcoscephale MA (Old Kingdom)? They have both elephant tramplers and chariots for you to choose, plus a wide variety of magic for your level 2 AOE's.

The pattern here has been that after people try testbeds, they come around to seeing that vans are overpowered.

[Foodstamp]

I would like to see FrankTrollman do a test as well. He has an incredible grasp of how magic works in Dom3, or atleast he seems to in the nooby game where he was pwning everyone.

I think if there is a person that can find a definate magical way to counter a heim in the early part of the game, it would be FrankTrollman.

[Corwin]

Ozymandias said:
Just to clarify a few things, EA Vanheim has capitol only sacreds that aren't nearly as good a chassis as Van or Helhirdling. Their defense is a respectable 12 before they berserk, but only 7 after. They cost three times as much as elite infantry of other nations. I don't believe that EA Vanheim has sacreds of excessive power.

Helheim and MA Vanheim are different. Van and Helhirdlings both have stock defense of 19. Oiorpata are the next closest sacred with 18 defense. White Centaurs, Equite of the Sacred Shroud, Tiger Riders, Wind Riders, Androphags, and Red Guard all have defense 17. Vanir cavalry have very high defense, particularly with a water blessing. This means that they are very rarely hit in melee, which provides normal troops very few chances to remove their mirror images. All of the previously listed sacred cavalry become very survivable in hand to hand with a water bless; Vanir cavalry have only a small advantage, but it is magnified by their mirror image. Also it is worth noting that of all the sacreds listed above, only Van are not capitol only.

True. I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

So personally I am ok with increasing price of sacred for Helheim and ME Vanheim a bit, but I would strongly vote against doing the same for Midgard. Notice that all people on this threat only complain about Helheim and ME Vanheim, not Midgard. If some sort of nerf will happen, it would be sad if Midgard would also be nerfed just because they also have "van" troops, despite the fact that this nation it doesn't deserve it.

[Sheap]

to have an OPTIONAL powerful nation

A nation that comes as part of the basic game is not optional, except in single player, where game balance is virtually irrelevant.

[Inigo Montoya]

Corwin said:
I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

I agree with you, Corwin. Although Vanheim MA vans need to be more expensive, I do not think Midgard LA vans merit the same treatment. You leave out one of the most important reasons why Vanheim MA vans are underpriced compared to Midgard LA - Midgard vans are limited to capital only production. I actually don't mind seeing viable Vanheim MA double bless rush strategies. However, I think there needs to be a penalty for gambling on the double bless rush. Since you can mass produce Vanheim MA vans from multiple provinces then choose the location for the battle with glamour, there is no down side to the rush at the current price point for middle age vans. They need to be more expensive so that if you can catch the Vanheim player and kill the van army, that player will be devastated. Since they can rebuild from all over, taking the capital isn't a viable response.

I think the solution is to increase the resource cost of Vanheim MA vans.
The spear wielding hirdman has a spear, helmet, chain mail hauberk, and shield for 20 resources.
The valkyrie has a spear, cap, chain mail cuirass, and shield for 15 resources. This is a 25% lower resource cost for pretty much similar gear. I'm okay with that though because valkyries are limited to capital-only production.
The van has a light lance, cap, chain mail cuirass, shield, javelin, and horse for 16 resources. This makes no sense!!! Here's a unit that has a horse, a lance, and a javelin -- much more than a valkyrie for only 1 more resource and for 4 LESS than the hirdman. I think this should be bumped up to 32 resources.

[PDF]

Inigo,

Why not just have MA Vanheim Vans limited to capitol-only ?
To me it'll be sufficient to rebalance MA Vanheim.

[PDF]

FrankTrollman said:
That test doesn't really show anything, since Chariots are part of a larger strategy. A single trample effect causes small amounts of damage to everything trampled, so it ends glamor effects. That means that the big scary "they all have glamor!" is over and they are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows.

You and I are looking at different spell lists.

Evocation 2:
Fire Blast
Sulphur Haze
Flare
Cold Blast
Shockwave

Alteration 2:
Earthmeld

Construction 2:
Ice Pebble Staff
Doom Glaive

Thaumaturgy 1:
Dessication
Frighten

Blood 2:
Blood Burst
Agony

All of these spells ignore Glamor. And Defense. The Helhirding is just a man against any of that. A man who costs 75 gold.

Sure, when you get up to Evocation 6 you get stuff like Magma Eruption that blows huge holes in the Vanir line at minimal cost, but even with just level 2 Research levels there's stuff you can do.

And if people are throwing around 40 Vanir, you'll have some crazy battle magic. Remember that larger units favor the side being trampled over the side trampling, because tramplers end up in the middle of the squad.

But larger armies also don't support the cause of the "Helheim is broken!" peoples, because Helheim can't produce large groups of their major units before the magical counters start coming in fast and hard.

-Frank

That seem really more theory than practice : producing 3-5 Vans/turn the *heims can field 40 vans or HH from turn 10 or so, so really very few magic has been researched by anyone. Maybe one path to 3 and another to 1, 2 at best..

Then you have tramplers, that kills mirror images, and the Vans "are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows". But you still have to find something able to overcome 24 def (swords), and a way to protect your archers from 39-speed charges. What can hit 24-def units and is available turn 10-15 ? Nothing...

Even then you're talking of "Vanir lines". But Vans don't line up, usually I use 6-Vans groups quite largely spread out, using map borders, with groups set to attack archers and rear. With their amazing speed, they are quite rarely, if ever, grouped, and will just avoid a good part of enemmy army before wreaking havoc on the rear. Big AoE Evocs, even if available will usually kill more friendlies than Vanir in such a configuration.

Lastly noone in the "non-overpowered" side ever mentioned AFAIK that Vanheim *has* magic, and potent one ! Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily, and as soona s they hit Evo-2 Shockwave is awfully effective with Vanjarls, and I don't even mention the obvious LB, then OL and TS !

[Aseth]

Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind

[PDF]

Aseth said:

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind

Sure, I even forgot to mention it ...