Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Inigo Montoya]

PDF said:
Inigo,

Why not just have MA Vanheim Vans limited to capitol-only ?
To me it'll be sufficient to rebalance MA Vanheim.

Without a doubt it would be more fair, but I worry some flavor will be lost. I think the developers envisioned vans being more common in the middle age and that's why they made them non-capital production. Valkyries are supposed to be your "rare" units in that age.

What I don't want to do at all is make the nations more similar to achieve balance. The joy of Dominions is balance through diversity and flexibility rather than balance by sameness.

[PDF]

Inigo Montoya said:

Without a doubt it would be more fair, but I worry some flavor will be lost. I think the developers envisioned vans being more common in the middle age and that's why they made them non-capital production. Valkyries are supposed to be your "rare" units in that age.

What I don't want to do at all is make the nations more similar to achieve balance. The joy of Dominions is balance through diversity and flexibility rather than balance by sameness.

Yep that's a valid issue. Then can I throw another suggestion : maybe then we could have "sacred vans" capitol-only and a tad weaker "mundane vans" elsewhere - ie the same differences than Mtnd Heirdlings vs Heiherdlings from LA Helheim ?

[SelfishGene]

EA Hellheim and Vanheim units should lose glamour and stealth; Hellhirdrings cost +40.

ME Vanheim has stealth +10, glamour (25 stealth) only on scouts and maybe one or two units. Vans cost +40(ish).

LE Vanheim has stealth and glamour. Van cost +40.

All high def sacred EA cavalry should also get a cost bump (Centaurs, ect..).

[Teraswaerto]

EA Vans should definately not lose glamour, it is very much thematic for them and removing it is not the only solution to balance problems.

[UninspiredName]

That suggestion is sort of overkill... Glamour is their defining trait, really, and they'd probably be weaker than they are worthwhile if you take it away. Thematically, it also seems weird that Late Age gets more... Wondrous, let's say, Vans than Middle Age.

And asking for sacred cavalry (Don't they all have high def?) of an entire age, in nations that aren't causing any trouble to become less easilly deployed is a step towards the sameness mentioned right above, in my eyes.

[SelfishGene]

Glamour should be seen less as a combat skill and more a reflection of their pending dissapearance from the world.

In other words, during the early days, the Elven peoples did not need to hide from the prying eyes of the mortal races, but as time goes on and their numbers reduce they become more and more hidden and reclusive.

If you felt the need to compensate them, you could add STR or HP, so that during the "early" days they are more straightfowardly strong, but as the later ages progress they must turn their strength to stealth, or whatever.

[SelfishGene]

Also like i argued in another forum, Vans are too powerful for their cost according to the very balance logic of Dominions . 70 gold? For a 25 stealth, sacred 12 armor, high defense, good attack, fastest cavalry in the game, unit? That's a silly thing .

Remember, what changed between the games was the concepts of Ages. What passed for a mediocre unit before - like Myrmiddon - suddenly becomes much more powerful in the early eras before there are crossbows or other high armor units.

Vans in Dominions 2 had to go against the full gamut of high-armor/defence units. In the EA, Hellhirdrings have almost as high armor values as any other high end unit. Hellhirdrings and to some extent, Vans, are proportionately much more powerful now than they were in Dom2. The increase cost in research also slowed down magical countersteps.

[Edi]

Of all the ideas in this thread, the suggestion to take away glamour is far and away the stupidest one.

It's one of the defining characteristics of the Vanir, so taking it away will just break things even worse. Increased gold and resource cost, possibly a reduction of defense and perhaps increased strength, giving them less of a stealth bonus and other such could be good solutions. Afaik stealth isn't tied to glamour. It was not in Dom2, glamour units were just given stealth +25 as a matter of thematics, but e.g. the Mother of Tuathas which had glamour only had stealth 0.

Edi

[SelfishGene]

Edi said:
Of all the ideas in this thread, the suggestion to take away glamour is far and away the stupidest one.

You're welcome!

[Corwin]

SelfishGene said:
EA Hellheim and Vanheim units should lose glamour and stealth; Hellhirdrings cost +40.

ME Vanheim has stealth +10, glamour (25 stealth) only on scouts and maybe one or two units. Vans cost +40(ish).

LE Vanheim has stealth and glamour. Van cost +40.

No, IMHO it is definitely overkill. Removing glamour AND stealth AND increasing cost by more than 50%??

I think raising cost of vans/herdlings for Helheim and MA Vanheim by 50% would go long way toward helping tone down their sacred. At 115gp per unit, it will be significantly more difficult to recruit large armies of sacred cavalry. Especially so in the beginning. Slower beginning means less territory, means less money to hire more sacred, et cetera.

Removing glamour would take out the most interesting thematic feature of Vanheim line of nations. I am much more in favor of balancing these nations through cost.

And as I said earlier, Midgard should be left alone. It is clearly much less powerful than Helheim and MA Vanheim. I also agree with Indigo - I forgot to mention that in Midgard vans are capital only, which is indeed a very big difference vs MA Vanheim, in addition to their other several relative weaknesses that I have mentioned in earlier in my post.

I also agree that all van-style sacred cavalry should be capital only for all Ages, for the balance purposes, even if it would be less thematic for MA Vanheim.


When nerfing it's important not to go too far. 50% cost increase for already expensive unit is a big change, no matter how you look at it. If needed it could always be tweaked more with future patches.