Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[BigJMoney]

If this thread gets locked I won't be alarmed or disappointed. I think we've covered everything, at least voiced all the major concerns, and the thread is now boiling down to a little bit of seething, which is absolutely unecessary. I don't agree with the way some of the other side's arguments have gone, but the truth is that we are all entitled to an opinion, even if it is stated in an illogical manner. I think there are enough people here to make decisions for themselves about whether a person's opinions prove valuable or not; I don't think anyone need point it out.

Let's also remember that the majority of the people posting in this thread do not represent the majority of the people who play this game regardless of how good the arguments are. And no matter if we are right or not, this game is the dev's baby, and they are going to have some personal feelings about the issue. The only thing that personally surprises me about this issue is how beloved the Vans must be to them as a nation, yet they don't go all the way to ensure their proper balance in the pack. But hey, if you can't beat `em, join `em. I'll just play the Vans as I feel fit (except to stray to other nations occasionally to make sure I'm actually good at the game). This issue certainly isn't worth getting upset about. If anyone has any more points to make about the issue and not about other peoples' points, you might get the chance to squeeze them in, `ere we remain.

=$=

[Teraswaerto]

B0rsuk said:
Oh, now I remember something. I heard there was an 'Attack Commanders' order. I remember someone mentioning you were required to have a staff of storms just to keep your mages alive.

You could just stick your commanders inside the main troop formations to protect them from fliers, although Amulets of Missile Protection were pretty mandatory.

A few things I remember in addition to those are that Gateway worked like Astral Travel, and that scouts could be used to hunt blood slaves. Sphinx could & did Teleport.

[Gandalf Parker]

I have not disagreed with everyone. There is a definate agreement amoung a large number of players that there is a problem here for MP, small maps, no victory conditions. Thats probably why the devs are interested in hearing some suggestions (and why the thread is not locked).

When I say IF I mean that its possible that the DEVS will agree it needs a fix. Any suggestions that wont do too much damage to other methods of play will get considered Im sure. So keep the suggestions coming. Lets not decalre the game broken, and lets not fill the thread with comments about other people.

[Kristoffer O]

Hi, and thanks. It's been a while since I inspected the development of this thread. I'm glad about how it turned out. Perhaps some heat, but interesting reading.

We were aware thet the vanir were powerful when we released the game. This thread and earlier experiences confirm this.

Vanheim will not lose glamour. Nor will it lose +25 stealth as stealth is linked to glamour. It was in dom2 as well, but wasn't explicit IIRC.

There will probably be some kind of change, but initially rather minor, like the oni cost change.

If you like you can continue discussions here, but I will not follow it unless notified for some reason.

Thanks!

[Sandman]

My suggestion: take away Vanheim's starting fortified city and replace it with something more modest. Not a big change, but it would slow them down a little bit.

[Inigo Montoya]

I stick with my suggestion to increase the resource cost of MA Vanheim vans to 32. This slows them down in the early game by 50%. I hate to nerf all sacred units (decreases bless strategy diversity), or require that MA vans be built capital-only (decreases national diversity).

Sticking to the OP, my position is MA Vanheim is overpowered. If you make their vans capital-only, you are nerfing them by hurting their late game, but you don't diminish their early double bless rush effectiveness. If you increase their resource cost (or perhaps both gold and resource cost), you are hurting their early game and to a lesser extent their late game. It feels more balanced to me to up their resource cost and it actually feels more accurate to pay more resources for vans for what you get (lance, javelin, horse, etc).

[DrPraetorious]

Given that the extreme north has not historically been a heavily populated part of the world, starting with a city has always struck me as generous.

My preference would still be to add some useful anti-van spells at lower levels, rather than nerfing vans. Given that folklore is chock full anti-faery magic procedures - as many as there are to use against demons - I think there should be some in-game, and that requires a "Fae" designator. These could be national spells or not, I give some examples below but I'm hardly a folklorist.

So we need a "Fae" tag, with a little icon, which the various faery creatures would have (faery queen, nymphs, should also have it, I'm sure there are units I'm forgetting), and add spells that harm Fae creatures, especially overland. To use against vanheim, overland spells would require a great deal of skill to use unless you are attacked (because you have to figure out the van's unit locations).

Iron Sun - Alteration 1
10 Earth Gems, ESS
Using the power of sympathetic magic, the light of celestial bodies is infused with the spiritual properties of cold iron. Creatures of fae or elven nature that do not find shelter from the light will be slain if they cannot resist the magic. Up to half the fae creatures in a province can be struck dead in this way in an exposed area, but fortresses and forests provide shelter from the deadly light.

Elfbane - Alteration 2
40 fatigue, NDD, AoE 4, Range 20, Deadly poison(fae only), 5+ damage fatigue (poison), Armor Negating, MRN
The mage will blow the seeds from a sprig of elfbane, and magically expand them to a great cloud. Elfbane is mildly toxic to most beings, producing irritation and fatigue, but is deadly to cratures of a fae or elven nature.

Circle of Salt - Enchantment 1
20 fatigue, W, Aoe 5, Range 5, 75+ fatigue damage fae only, maybe weakness, too?, no magic resistance allowed
Magically purified sea salt is an effective deterrent against faery creatures. Although a bag of the salt cannot be thrown far, fae creatures struck by it will quickly find they lack the strength even to lift their own limbs.

And you get the point. Obviously I think such a thing would be great for the basic game - game balance considerations aside - but if we just had the tools to mod it in ourselves that would satisfy me just fine.

[Kristoffer O]

Vanir are not fae, they are gods. They invented iron forging and eat salted pork.

EDIT: hmm, seems I cant stay away from the thread

[Gandalf Parker]

You know that most of these ideas can be tried with a mod file to see if it really helps. Also, putting in all of the nations as AI and doing super fast turn generations can show you fairly quick how turns out. Turning on the score.html helps also by giving you some real numbers to look at each turn.

[UninspiredName]

Of course, the AI isn't likely to pull off a bless strategy, especially with a computer-generated Pretender. (Though that's easy enough to get around)