The possibility of partnership.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, just an idea that came to me here, but I wanted to get the forum's opinions as well as bring it to the attention of the designers.

Another game I own, and of which some of you may have heard, is Galactic Civilizations 2, "Dread-Lords" by Stardock. The reasons I bring it up are that it too was created by a small number of designers, and it is known for having one of the best AIs for turn-based on the market. It's a pretty decent game overall, and the designers are looking for a fantasy turn based strategy to work on. I'm wondering, not only if the designers would be interested in working with Stardock, but if the community as a whole think they'd be a good company for Illwinter to work with to possibly bring the Dom series to a larger market, and to help expand the game and improve it in good areas. They seem to be good at what they do, and the kind of company which could handle Dom with care, but ofcourse I'd encourage anyone with an opinion to do research and homework on the subject.

My opinion:
In order to take the Dom series to the next level any time soon, it seems pretty clear that it's going to take more than two designers, unless we fit slave collars on Johan and Kristoffer and make them work 24/7 on Dom. While I personally am all for that, evil greedy beast that I am, I'm pretty sure it's illegal, and maybe even immoral, whatever that means. At the same time, big bloated companies like Atari etc. clearly aren't the way to go. Stardock already has created a good, popular small game-Galactic Civilizations-and then successfully expanded it into a broad market without destroying what made the game good in the first place. They show innovation, they seem to have a very good record of working with their fan-community, and they have technology and know-how that would directly and significantly improve those areas where Dom 3 really doesn't shine-specifically AI. I believe they actually care about making good games and like playing games, and they seem to have a good grasp of what a good game is.

If Kristoffer and Johan are satisfied with Illwinter going it alone, ofcourse that's perfectly fine with me and I respect that, not that I have a choice in the matter, but it's possible that they are looking for, or have thought about looking for, a company to partner with on the Dom series, in which case I'd like to do my part to insure that they make a good choice about that partner, and in the process hopefully make me a better game.

Naturally, I have no connection with Stardock, Illwinter, or anyone willing to pay me one red cent about my opinion on pretty much any subject, I'm sad to say, but atleast it keeps my interests earnest and my hands clean.

[PvK]

HoneyBadger said:
... if the community as a whole think they'd be a good company for Illwinter to work with to possibly bring the Dom series to a larger market, and to help expand the game and improve it in good areas. ...

I've not had much interest in GalCiv due to the nearly non-existant combat system. So I've not enough experience to know much about their developers' strengths. However having programmed game AI myself, it seems to me that while the GalCiv AI apparently has made a very good impression, the game it's playing isn't nearly as complex or detailed as Dominions and its database. It's far easier to make a convincing AI for a game with fewer detailed decisions and game systems to master.

Also, I think IW benefits greatly from being developed with money-making being a tertiary consideration at most, and with a mass-market audience having near-zero influence on development decisions. So, I'm hoping IW stay centered on interesting "hard-core" game design, and remain ambivalent to the "larger market" and investors who would want them to change their priorities.

PvK

[tromper]

Welp, not that it matters much, but I completely disagree with Pvk, and concur with HoneyBadger.

As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games. I'm not casual by any means, but the hardcore junkets many of you fly should give some ground for us middling folks that want to kick it with some excellent strategic AND MYTHOLOGICAL/HISTORICAL noise now and then.

Stardock's made money. Stardock doesn't rape. Brad's a nice guy. Speak to them and square away the balance and AI for those of us that don't play a bazillion hours per day.

[B0rsuk]

I understand benefits of having only ~2 people on team. You can make the game exactly the way you want. This is a huge pro for someone interested in creating games, believe me.

In case you wanted to benefit from their electronic distribution system, Caravelgames is even smaller than Stardock (probably) but sells their game through download.
http://caravelgames.com
DROD rocks, by the way.

[upstreamedge]

I also like how small IW is because it means that they take input from their (rabid) fanbase very seriously.

[Agrajag]

tromper said:
As a single-player sort, over the course of weeks/months now, on the larger maps sort of guy. And not a moron. I appreciate the depth and the beauty that the designers have brought to the table.

But I don't appreciate finding myself reading a hundred posts about how screwed up Vanheim is. Nor being doinked by that nation, in single player games, time and again, in single player games.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but Galciv gives all races the exact same units to play with, so is balanced by means of complete symmetry.

AI is also probably not a consideration, since Galciv was designed around the idea of the customizable (by Brad) AI. Dominions however isn't, and as far as I can guess, does not have specific hooks and handles to alter the AI, and is also immensly more complex.

Also, there's the fact the Stardock and Illwinter are located in different continents.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, small companies aren't really the issue, B0rsuk, the issue is Illwinter possibly partnering with another game company that would benefit my own personal gaming experience. My point and my goal is to locate a game company that, as tromper states very concisely: "makes money and doesn't rape" the game. Stardock could be a very good choice. Stardock seems to be a company which is strong in the areas Dom 3 is weak. I like that they focus on the single-player experience, and I like that they have very good AI implementation. I'm glad that Dom3 has excellent multi-player, I'm glad that aspect of the game is there if I choose to use it, but in the meantime, I enjoy playing single-player. It would be nice if less limited programming resources and man-hours could be used to smooth out some of the rougher spots in the game.

[Archonsod]

To be honest, the GalCiv AI isn't exactly amazing either. In certain areas it's fairly strong, but diplomacy is somewhat weak and it's understanding of combat is limited.

Mind you, Stardock were talking about a homage to Master Of Magic, might be an ideal project for the two to corroborate on.

[HoneyBadger]

AI isn't people, fortunately. It's going to be limited however you look at it. It's also not realistic to suppose that Illwinter and Stardock would corroborate on a Master of Magic sequil or clone-for one thing, Stardock tried to buy the rights to MoM and the holding company made things too difficult, so they aren't doing that anymore.
I do think that if Illwinter went to Stardock with Dom3 that there'd be a very good chance for the two to get together, and once that happened, for really good things.

Besides, I completely agree with the opinion that, not only is Dom3 not MoM, it should not be MoM. Historically, it's a lot closer to Fantasy Generals or maybe King's Bounty. While I wouldn't mind a very little bit more infrastructure-building (I think the presence of a Forge would compliment the Temple and Lab and add the possibility of some advanced troops, and maybe be used to expand magical forging and the game's economics) I don't want to see the game turn into a Christmas train-set of buildings that only exist to explain why I'm able to produce troop type Q.

[Archonsod]

I thought they said they couldn't get the rights, hence the homage rather than the modern version?

Regardless, I wasn't saying that Doms 3 should be more like MoM. I simply figure MoM would be a logical project for both teams - Stardock pretty much lifted most of the mechanics from MOO II in Galciv 1, Illwinter have the fantasy world background. One of the more serious problems with both GalCiv games was that there was little difference between races - whether your playing Terran or Drengin makes no real difference apart from a couple of numbers. There's no real 'feel' for the race you're playing. Dominions on the other hand has a distinct theme and feeling for each race, despite the shared magic and similar, but is limited on the strategic level (in the sense that your pretty much raising armies and killing your enemies and nothing else).
I still can't see what Stardock could really do for Doms 3 beyond making it 'more like MoM'. They're good at the economic type stuff, the tech trees and similar, but in the two areas Doms 3 AI really could be improved (Diplomacy, tactics) Stardock are just as bad as Illwinter.