Warsaw Pact and TI

[PlasmaKrab]

Going out on a limb here, I'd say that some of the most recent Russian tanks (T-64B, T-72B, T-80, T-90) could be entitled a vision rating around 30. Same for some of the latest non-TI night sights like the German PZB-200 (see Leo1A1A2 etc.).

Back to topic now, has anyone any info about local (e.g. Czechoslovakian, Polish, Yugoslavian pre-'90 thermal sights variants? I think all of the non-Russian 90s upgrade use import thermals, but that's it AFAIK.

Now if you're going to clean the Russian OBF from all the undesired TIs, don't forget that a vision of 40 can also model GSRs, like that on the early BRMs. To my best knowledge the original BRM-1 (model 1976) already had a pop-up GSR with a quoted detection range of 12km.
Also, what about the BRM-2? I couldn't find any data about a dedicated recon version of the BMP-2, where does the idea come from?

[mr_clark]

Well, I can say that many WP countries produced their own IR/Nightsight equipment.

AFAIK in East Germany Tanks were equipped during first overhaul with Carl Zeiss made devices, as they had quite some improved performance over the original Soviet parts.#
I'll try to find some more info on that, but it will be hard as this is not widely advertised...

[DRG]

PlasmaKrab said:
<snip>
Now if you're going to clean the Russian OBF from all the undesired TIs, don't forget that a vision of 40 can also model GSRs, like that on the early BRMs. To my best knowledge the original BRM-1 (model 1976) already had a pop-up GSR with a quoted detection range of 12km.
<snip>

The ACRV and PRP "FO Vehicles" that use the "SMALL FRED" radar are untouched. It was primarily the Hinds that were the problem not the tanks. Also, it's not just the Russian and Warsaw pact that is being looked at here. My original question just asked when they started using it because I could not find a source that definitively answered that question and I would have thought 20 -25 years after the fact it would have been better documented

As well, there seems some concern that the IR gear Russian tanks carried will represented correctly. It is. I'm not sure where this concern comes from. All the Russian ( and WP ) tanks ( unless they are old t-34's )have IR gear represented in the 70's in the OOB's you have now.

Don

[PN79]

PlasmaKrab said:

Back to topic now, has anyone any info about local (e.g. Czechoslovakian, Polish, Yugoslavian pre-'90 thermal sights variants? I think all of the non-Russian 90s upgrade use import thermals, but that's it AFAIK.

Czechoslovakia had 2 TI sights in development in late '80.
The first one was determined for new SP-AAA STROP and the second one for new BPzV based on BVP-2 (the first BPzV Svatava which entered service in 1988 was based on BVP-1 and had GSR). Both project was not completed from obvious reasons (although later Slovakia developed their BRAMS which is in fact continuator of STROP).

However many recon vehicels used GSR like OT-65RL which were part of recon company in tank regiment.

[Kuklinovsky]

Two remarks about Warsaw Pact's visual observation abilities:

1. You seem to forget about Soviet battlefield radars at all.

2. Lack of TI in WP armies wasn't so important because they could always illuminate battlefield by flares and flash bombs at night. In fact Mi-24s and Soviet armor were to act that way. Moreover Central Europe isn't Persian Gulf desert. Almost all WP-NATO tank battles would be waged here at less than 2 km distance, pretty much enough for IR and LLTV sights capabilities.

[mr_clark]

Yes I totally agree to that, but in Heavy Smoke (which is a likely battlefield event) TI tanks would still penetrate it further then IR or "Stargoggle" equipped vehicles.

Gamewise the loss of the TI Hinds surely makes it more challenging to play WP campaigns...

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
Two remarks about Warsaw Pact's visual observation abilities:

1. You seem to forget about Soviet battlefield radars at all.

They were already discussed just several posts earlier Besides these were proliferated also in Western armies so either both or none So far they are mated on Soviet side with BRM-1 recon vehicles (that use them IRL) and by FO vehicles, in he West just by late FO vehicles.

2. Lack of TI in WP armies wasn't so important because they could always illuminate battlefield by flares and flash bombs at night. In fact Mi-24s and Soviet armor were to act that way.

The same can be done by NATO (and would be employed with older non-TI units) but cannot make for TI. TI was supposed to be night sight but it is almost as a rule used even in daytime as it offers on most occassions better battle-range target acquisition than daylight branch of the system.

Moreover Central Europe isn't Persian Gulf desert. Almost all WP-NATO tank battles would be waged here at less than 2 km distance, pretty much enough for IR and LLTV sights capabilities.

Maybe "pretty much enough" for theoretical acquisition distance, but the TI equipped units would have always edge due to lesser effect of obscurants and better ability to ID what's that in sights. If you're trying to recognise something on the edge of LLTV's envelope or well within TI's envelope, it'll make a difference.
Besides the 2km distance is just an offhand average. Judging by my country, anyone trying to get to the capital or most of other major population centers who'll rely on the 2km average will find himself in big trouble as he'd enter a flat and open terrain around main rivers, controlled usually from both sides by a great overwatch positions. For example a rather minor hill not so far from my home (ca. 2 clicks) offers a great, relatively unobstructed field of view as far as to some 20km distant Prague airport

[Marek_Tucan]

PN79 said:
Czechoslovakia had 2 TI sights in development in late '80.
The first one was determined for new SP-AAA STROP

Was it really TI? All I can find indicates rather a LLTV system for STROP.

[Kuklinovsky]

Sgt. Tucan: Please stop twaddling all these rubbish!

PS. If WinSPMBT 3.0 is aimed to be sold primarly to the Western gamers its designers should deprive WP forces not only TI equipment but also laser rangefinders, radars, missiles, PGMs etc. I advise you simply to change name of Iraqi OOB to Soviet OOB and that is all!
By doing so you will make playing WinSPMBT by Western teenagers really more funny but unfortunately this game will be far from reality.

Well, all childs and gudgeons can install 3.0 patch but all non-teenagers and profies are encouraged not to upgrade game with patch 3.0 or rebuild it themselves. I think this advice can satisfy everyone!

BYE!

[Smersh]

as a side note the average range in Europe was estimated to be between and 500 and 700m.