Warsaw Pact and TI

[Kuklinovsky]

Maybe someone could help to explain our poor Tucan that it doesn't solely matter WP will have TI or not in the game!

The main reason is that in reality lack of TI equipment in Warsaw Pact forces would have only twobit impact on result of hypothetical war with NATO in 1980s. Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules.

So, let's play professional WinSPMBT 2.51 tactical war game with older OOBs and teens should play WinSPMBT 3.0 arcade!

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
Maybe someone could help to explain our poor Tucan that it doesn't solely matter WP will have TI or not in the game!

So why are you fussing so much about it? Esp if you do proclaim the "professionality" below, woudln't it be "professional" to get along with OOB set that is closer to reality (by removing unrealistic equipment) and, when good old "professional" tactics don't work due to the change, just invent new ones?

The main reason is that in reality lack of TI equipment in Warsaw Pact forces would have only twobit impact on result of hypothetical war with NATO in 1980s. Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules.

So, let's play professional WinSPMBT 2.51 tactical war game with older OOBs and teens should play WinSPMBT 3.0 arcade!

Unfortunately, as you say "professional" player of SPMBT, if he wants to be true to real life, will get WarPac more purchase points allocation. Also he'll know that since these Hinds don't have TI anymore they will be significantly cheaper meaning he'll have to face more of them. Explain, please, how "Unfortunately in WinSPMBT such configuration cause a huge NATO advantage over WP which practically confronts WP player with hopeless situation due to game engine's rules."? Esp. as in the era we're discussing not all that many Western units have TI's either - Abrams, Leo2, Bradley...and those are pretty expensive. So again, how does this put WP into hopeless situation?
I was able to achieve a neat close victory when clashing Czechoslovakian non-TI units head on with West German force of the same point value with TI Leos in PBEM and I didn't feel like being put into hopeless situation - all I needed was to employ tactics to lure Leos into good position.

Just FYI: In my OOB set the Hind TI removal took place already a long time ago, as well as cutting night sight range of most pre-TI Russian vehicles. Most of times I play for Czechoslovakia and the only change in the tactics is that I don't use Hinds for recon anymore, rather like flying tanks (which is, btw, closer to reality) and for recon I use GSR-equipped BVP-1 base BPzV.

Oh, and BTW, point out, please, who of those who prefer closing to reality by removing unrealistic TI from Hinds here is teen?

BTW2: Still confused, maybe I'll need an explanation once again... How the heck does removing of UNREALISTIC equipment in the game or its altering to REAL equipment turn the game into arcade? Or is reality an arcade?

[Kuklinovsky]

It is so many baloney in above scribbles wrote by this ridiculous sergeant I can describe it only by one word: deplorable! He seems not to understand what I am talking about.

Oh yes, he hits us with some point allocation cheating or using his "revolutionary" OOBs. Thanks! Go and play PBEMs in WinSPMBT 3.0 as a WP player with teens or even bundles from heaven, buddy. I am sure you will always win thanks to your better tactics, daisy OOBs and...maybe longer life experience!

PS. I suspect all this tinkering at WP OOBs is a result of our discussion about Soviet Army real capabilities during 1980s conducted here not so long ago. Certainly some guys weren't happy with facts described there so they decided to "improve" WinSPMBT game by strengthening "right" side (NATO) to explain every teen in US/UK that West always had overwhelming superiority over everyone on this planet exactly as over Iraq. Otherwise our teens would be in a big trouble with understanding why they can't smash Soviets so easily like US crushed Saddam in 1991. Moreover they may not be willing to buy such a "challenging" game until "right" side takes "hold water" advantage! Then maybe some desperado will agree to play WP side.

So, I wish you further "creditable", "praiseworthy", "marvellous" work and GOODBYE!

[Marek_Tucan]

Kuklinovsky said:
It is so many baloney in above scribbles wrote by this ridiculous sergeant I can describe it only by one word: deplorable! He seems not to understand what I am talking about.

What you seem to be talking about is WarPac losing an unrealistic equipment. Still waiting to show some baloney. Go on. Show for exmple some TI-equipped Hind example from 1980's.

Oh yes, he hits us with some point allocation cheating or using his "revolutionary" OOBs.

Oh point allocation cheating? You were complaining you can't get !real! circumstances, well, if you want to drop in real numerical superiority on the side of USSR, I'm afraid you have to resort to the so-called "cheating".
And where do I claim my OOB's being revolutionary? Seems you do resort too often to derogatory talking when your beloved side is hurt by reality...

Thanks! Go and play PBEMs in WinSPMBT 3.0 as a WP player with teens or even bundles from heaven, buddy. I am sure you will always win thanks to your better tactics, daisy OOBs and...maybe longer life experience!

Claiming whoever disagrees with you is a teen who don't know squat is actually behavior I see mostly in the ranks of... Teens. Just FYI, haven't played PBEM with a teen yet, rather
with older and experienced players. As for "better tactics", that's what I think a tactical-scale game is all about, no? If the unreal TI EastBloc units are so crucial for YOUR tactics, I encourage you to change the tactics, not the reality.

PS. I suspect all this tinkering at WP OOBs is a result of our discussion about Soviet Army real capabilities during 1980s conducted here not so long ago.

In a way, as every such discussion has (when taken seriously and not in fanboy fashion) aim to improve representation of real world in the game. Once again I ask you why is it better for you to leave units with unrealistic values of vision in the OOBs instead replacing them with realistic ones? Just because your favourite side loses capability it didn't have in reality? Well, world is cruel, learn to use another tactics.

Certainly some guys weren't happy with facts described there so they decided to "improve" WinSPMBT game by strengthening "right" side (NATO) to explain every teen in US/UK that West always had overwhelming superiority over everyone on this planet exactly as over Iraq.

My friend, YOU are acting exactly as a child that loses his favourite toy (TI Hinds). Now talk about teens

Otherwise our teens would be in a big trouble with understanding why they can't smash Soviets so easily like US crushed Saddam in 1991.

Erm, ever tried to fight against NATO TI units without TI, and against a human opponent instead of AI? I encourage you to do so. It IS doable, you just have to quit *****ing about how the world is unfair to good old USSR and have to try to implement proper tactics. The "professional" players you were talking about have no problem with this.

Moreover they may not be willing to buy such a "challenging" game until "right" side takes "hold water" advantage! Then maybe some desperado will agree to play WP side.

So, I wish you further "creditable", "praiseworthy", "marvellous" work and GOODBYE!

As I already said I most of times (even in PBEM) tend to play Czechoslovakia, IE Eastern Block country with equipment on lower level than USSR, YET I don't feel like desperado - and the battles are far from one-sided.

And again, a question, simple and easy, which you seem to fail to respond: How can bringing the game closer to reality by removing unreal capabilities of some units turn the game into "arcade for teenagers"?

[Sarunas]

lol, teh pwned

[Smersh]

How exactly can you give yourself more points then the ai? I always thought ai purchase points where based on your own purchase.

Tucan since you talk about superior tactics, what are your tactics then of fighting a TI opponent with no TI? or you don't want to give away your PBEM secerts. I don't know of any Soviet tactics designed to counter TI. Other than don't expose yourself what can you do. hiding isn't exactly going to kill the TI unit.


I also like playing with Czechoslavia, and East Germany in addition to the USSR. Czech and E. German equipment is much 'simplier' and I like that. It really impresses me when a 100mm BS-3 cannon from WW2 is knocking out Leopards and Pattons in the 80s (with modernized ammo of course)

[Marek_Tucan]

Smersh said:
How exactly can you give yourself more points then the ai?
I always thought ai purchase points where based on your own purchase.

By setting points for both sides in Preferences to suit your needs

Tucan since you talk about superior tactics, what are your tactics then of fighting a TI opponent with no TI? or you don't want to give away your PBEM secerts. I don't know of any Soviet tactics designed to counter TI. Other than don't expose yourself what can you do. hiding isn't exactly going to kill the TI unit.

It's hiding up to the point you are in a good position Generally my infantry and tanks made advance through forest not feasible so the advance after losing some vehicles to ambushes and pointblank gun fire shifted to more open terrain where my tank reserves were able to play shoot and scoot from two sides and ATGM's were able to harass Marders (though they did seldom hit, more Marders fell prey to my T-55's). Also while moving to the open and towards objectives there was a small screening infantry platoon that was wiped out completely, but managed to knock out several tanks. Also had to fight for flank shots as 125mm ammo had problems with defeating Leo's front (but on several occassions my 72M1's survived front hits by 120mm as well).
Heavily used tactical redeployment of the screening forces once they made their part - delayed enemy long enough etc.

EDIT: Of course this works just as long as there's a place where to seek cover, the map was a map of real are in Middle Europe and was pretty confined at places, though it offered opportunities for long-range shots as well. If it was flat desert it won't work

Of course loses on my side were rather serious as well, lost lots and lots of grunts and took heavy losses among screening T-55's and IFV's, but numerically the losses were roughly comparable with the difference the enemy lost rather expensive stuff.

I also like playing with Czechoslavia, and East Germany in addition to the USSR. Czech and E. German equipment is much 'simplier' and I like that. It really impresses me when a 100mm BS-3 cannon from WW2 is knocking out Leopards and Pattons in the 80s (with modernized ammo of course)

Yup, T-55 is even in 1980's great tank to be used as flank security or for ambushes or to counter enemy IFV's and APC's.

[PlasmaKrab]

Heh, I was more used to US-licking trolls until now (the ones who go waah-I-cant-beat-T80s-but-I-know-Abrahams-is-teh-best-tank-evar!!!!!!!)

Kuklinovsky, could we all hold back the personal attacks here please? Do you have verifiable info about the fact that Soviet-era Hinds had any kind of equipment allowing them to see through battlefield smoke?
In case you didn't read the whole thread through, that's what Don has been asking for since the beginning.

If you haven't, please stop the pointless *****ing.
You want an illuminated battlefield? set the visibility over 50 or so. That'll never prevent the other player to smoke you. If you can't win the game as it is, improve your tactics until you can: even with better hardware the IA is blessedly clueless and vulnerable to delaying or flanking.
And from all the figures I've seen (yes, from both "sides"), the game is still pretty fair-minded with lte Soviet units.