Warsaw Pact and TI

[Siddhi]

Kuklinovsky i also think your tone of voice in the very least is a bit questionable and also would perfer a more moderate debate. This aggessive posting culture is deplorable and is mark of a very poor community - i would suggest anyone interested in a more mature and intelligent enviornment check out the forums run by paradox.

on more interesting matters (engagement ranges, relevant to TI):

My handbook (Austrian military, published early 1980s), states engangement ranges "under 1000m". The terrain is however only marginaly comparable with Bavaria (east of the country much more open, west of the country much more mountainous), so this could well be inaccuate for Germany.

Also an interersting statement from memory: "faced with a superior foe, the mobile anti-tank defence should be conducted as close as possible to negate enemy technological superiority, while simuatenously allowing for proper displacement." The example is given with the Kurassier JgPz (light tank), which was specifically designed for rapid engagements of 400-800m (2-4 shots) and retreat.

A side note, in another thread we talked about "TI-defeating smoke" which does exist, and (i speculate), could have formed an important part of WAPA strategy in the final period (1985-90).

[PlasmaKrab]

Good point about infrared smoke Siddhi, I've been wondering for a while how widespread that thing was, and since when.
After all that's what the "IR" is about in VIRSS. AFAIK VIR smoke is based on suspended metallic particles and so should also screen from radars.

Since enough smoke will eventually block TI sight now, would it be possible to create a second smoke dispersers category which would (totally out on a limb here) create maximum-density smoke clouds or several simultaneous smoke clouds to simulate thicker, impenetrable smoke?

[mr_clark]

Siddi: Very interesting, thanks for that.

Note that it claims the MI-24B would have featured a FLIR (which is TI as the FLIR definition is normally used ,isn't it?) But then there's no direct reference on that system with the Mi-24D, so was it used or not? I.e. had the Hind D a FLIR (TI) system or not?

Smersh/Marek_Tucan: Yeah I had some fun experiances with T-55s, my favourite being in an AI GDR/US campaign, where a T55 engaged a M1A1 on 100 meters landing a 'critical hit' with +40 penetration, catastrophically killing the Abrams with it's first shot...

[PlasmaKrab]

I don't want to spoil anyone's day, but a FLIR could also be a passive or active EOIR sensor in the short wavelength band, i.e. not the everyday thermal radiation domain. Granted, short-wavelength Russian IR systems were apparently able to pick fires at great ranges (even lighted cigarettes for infantry systems), but certainly not the thermal radiation of a running engine.
Or it could also be a first-generation FLIR (in the US sense) that was tested on the Mi24B but abandoned for lack of reliability/efficiency/affordability. Hell, the thing didn't even reach the prototype stage, nothing even tells us that this LLTV/FLIR existed when the Mil team put the mockup together!
All in all, it is strange indeed that the device isn't mentioned in further versions.

I know, I'm Hind-prejudiced...

[Siddhi]

mr. clark:
it is confusing, i agree, especially as dedicated "Night fighting" Hinds only make an appearence in 1999! ( other source). However, the Mi-24k seems to have good IR capability which I believe can defeat some smoke. More research could be done on the basis of this article.

Plasmakrab:
i like your suggestion, we talked about it before but got nowhere (sigh). I do not have any info on actual WAPA use of this "special smoke", I do have it confirmed in existence but really do not how and when it would be used. The problem is also that as "green slime" i am not that hot on the techie details, i know the our m60Aö (a3*) had basic IR that could penetrate "some" smoke, but not how much.

Btw are you sure it was metalised? IIRC you used some sort of plastic particles to raise the ambient heat of the smoke...

[Marek_Tucan]

Siddhi said:
My handbook (Austrian military, published early 1980s), states engangement ranges "under 1000m". The terrain is however only marginaly comparable with Bavaria (east of the country much more open, west of the country much more mountainous), so this could well be inaccuate for Germany.

Interesting... Yup, visited Eastern Austria (around borders with Slovakia and Wien) repeatedly and Western once and there definitely are differences... From what I've seen, I'd hate to be a commander ordered to storm into Eastern Austria, those hills with vineyards offer great overwatch over approaches both from Moravia and Slovakia, plus there would be a river crossing needed... But guess the main threat was (due to these facts) being perceived across Hungarian borders? There as far as I gather is nice open terrain...

As for Bavaria, I'd rate it as one of worst assault routes towards Germany. Too many hills and forests, visited the region on foot this summer and I'd hate to be forced to use the few major roads going across the borders there...

[DRG]

I'm locking this thread becasue it's getting out of hand and I have the information I was looking for. ALL I asked was info on when the Russians/Warsaw pact etc etc started using Thermal Imaging , not IR not anything else and that was asked primarily because there were Hinds in the game as early as 1978 that had Vision 40 and I knew that to be wrong so I was hoping someone here could help us make that right and as I stated at the beginning "back it up with a varifiable source " ( theres been very little of that BTW...)

For those of you "worrying" that this is going to mean the Russian etc etc are going to "lose" their TI on their tanks the answer, as already stated earlier, is NO. Currently, in the OOB's you have there are NO Russian/ Warsaw pact etc Tanks with Thermal Imaging prior to the 1990's and that has not changed in the V3 OOB's. They don't have it prior to the 1990s becasue they DIDN'T have it and the HINDs that have it in the game are I'm guessing, the result of a simple cut and paste error that has happened other times in the past. A unit is copied and the stats altered to make it a different version and something ( in this case the vision number ) is overlooked. THAT is what is being corrected. The ACRV and PRP units that use the "Little Fred" radar will be untouched.

There were ALSO, for those childish, narrow minded individuals that seem to think this is some kind of Slavic bashing exercise, there were WESTERN units that were found to have higher vision numbers than they should have for the years they were in-service that were corrected as well so this is not all about the Soviet Bloc.

All I asked for was information. We have always strived to keep the game honest and we don't favour one "side" over the other though there are people with minds so tightly closed to that issue that I could explain that until the end of time and they'd never understand.

This thread is locked. The "discussion" is over.

Don