GOLD A.I. vs old A.I.

jowe01 · #1 December 10th, 2001, 12:20 PM

Shouldn't the Gold edition fix these shortcomings ? They are serious drawbacks,not minor details. I realize that this would mean investing some more time into the code, but hey, we are paying a good part of the price for a completely new game for the Gold edition. I realize that in order to support Aaron's/Shrapnel's good work, some people would buy SE4 Gold even if it only consisted of SE4 1.0 with a new sticker on the "manual". However, I think that in order to be a success, there has to be some real value-added. After an initial wave of "freak-purchases", you can only sell more if people feel that they receive something in return for their money. IMHO, you cannot hide from the customer base as a whole that so far the "Gold Edition" offers one of the least "bang for your buck" of all add-ons which I have ever seen from any gaming company (basically only the TCP/IP support is worth mentioning).

Now hammer me, but I would actually recommend to anyone to withhold your pre-orders until it becomes clear that the AI really gets beefed up in SE4 Gold. Not that Aaron/Shrapnell would not merit making some more money for the good support which they have offered so far. On the game which I have bought in November 2000 they have offered very good value for money. However, what I have seen in terms of new features in SE4 Gold simply is not worth another 35 $ plus expedition fees.

Please, please, Malfaldor, do yourself a favor and start seriously tackling all the bad AI shortcomings. If not, just offer a 10 $ download, that would be fair.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: jowe01 ]

geoschmo · #2 December 11th, 2001, 02:28 AM

Well Jowe01, I couldn't disagree with you more, but I see no reason to "hammer" you about it. It's a differance of opinion after all.

I believe that simply in terms of the hours of play received from the original game, I have received so much more for the original $35 dollars than I had any right to expect.

The ai may not be perfect, but to be honest I don't play the ai all that much. I don't think that with a game with as many variables as this one has, you will ever get an AI that can take a competant player in a straight up fight. But I play against other humans, and even an inexperienced human player can offer a far greater challange than an AI.

I have eagerly preordered my copy of the Gold CD and would highly encourage everyone else to do the same. If for nothing else it is worth it for the onging support or this great game. But that's not all you get of course. He has added many features that we have all been asking for.

If you don't feel it's deserved though, by all means don't waste your money on it. That's your opinioin, and it's your money.

Geoschmo

DirectorTsaarx · #3 December 10th, 2001, 06:46 PM

Just to add my opinion about "Gold" editions:

I was reading one of my computer gaming mags over the weekend, and there were a couple articles dedicated to "Gold" editions of a variety of games. Some Gold editions were nothing more than a collection of user mods, some were just a collections of different Versions of the game (like Quake and Quake II), some were patch collections, some included new levels/missions and some actually added new features. Oh, and the prices ranged from $15 to $50. So, as near as I can tell, SEIV:G is a typical Gold edition of a computer game. It includes a collection of user mods(in a convenient package, plus a mod picker), some new features (both TCP/IP and drones), new systems (SEIV Version of levels, kind of) and some bugfixes/patches. The only thing missing is a copy of SE2 and/or SE3 (like we'd need either of those). All for $35, just slightly more than the average price for other "Gold" edition games. My only complaint is that the SEIV:G "meets expectations" for a Gold edition of a game, rather than "exceeding expectations" as MM & Shrapnel usually do.

Menschenfresser · #4 December 10th, 2001, 07:02 PM

I fall somewhere between the Last two Posts. I am all for supporting quality game makers like Malfador and Shrapnel. Especially during a time in gaming when it seems as if the industry is producing the same crap over and over.

I absolutely love SE4...hands down. However, I do feel I am going to wait to see what Gold holds. I will probably buy it anyway, if only for the continued updates.

I would love to see the game expand and forever expand. That is the nature of the game and of those who play it.

I am usually a patient gamer, meaning when I hear a game is coming out and it entices me, I usually wait...sometimes a year or two, before picking it up. A)It is cheaper by then, and B) it has already gone through several patches. Sometimes I even wait for the Gold edition.

I am not so interested in Malfador tweaking the AI to perfection....I am sorry, but they (malfador) just don't have the time. The modders are the key; therefore, I support the faction, if there is one, that wants as many extra mod files added to the game as possible. Events, Ai files, abilities, abilities abilities.....add as much as possible even if Malfador doesn't have the time or will to exploit them in new features. We can make them.

The focus should be on what the modders want, because afterall, we all end up playing with either our own mods or someone else's in the end.

In the end, that is what will make me appreciate the Gold Version.

Q · #5 December 10th, 2001, 07:24 PM

I agree with Menschenfresser that the priority for MM should be in things that improve the possibilities of making modifications.
The intoduction of the drones is a good example, that we never could have achieved through modding, but gives us great new possibilities (as far as I can tell).
On the other hands the introduction of weapon mounts for satellites and weapon platforms is something modders have already developped a long time ago. If MM includes that in the gold Version, fine; if they reinvented it by themselves it's a waste of their precious time.

jowe01 · #6 December 10th, 2001, 09:07 PM

Q is actually putting the finger on the issue. Most of the AI shortcomings which were mentioned in the first Posts of this threat and in some others cannot be fixed by "simply" modifying the data files. They require that the code is changed. Obviously, this requires a most probably non-negligible input in terms of time from Malfaldor. From my point of view, the Gold edition would be the point in time to make that investment ... and be paid for it. Only changes to the hardcoded AI can bring about revolutionary improvements in single player mode. The modders, while doing great jobs, can only optimize the parameters which the hardcoded AI employs - and currently this often means optimizing the behaviour of an artificial idiot.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: jowe01 ]

Beck · #7 December 12th, 2001, 06:52 AM

But that could be said of the AI of virtually any game out there now or in the foreseeable future. Strategy games in particular suffer because by their very nature, there are a huge number of variables. I never expect the AI to produce classic tough games. The AI is a tool to learn the game and to try new strategies for use against human opponents. To me that is the real game and why I purchased it. I agree with Q I would rather see any programming time go to improving the modifications available to modders, etc. than improving an AI to which we would make the needed adjustments to and be back right where we're at now.