What is the problem with SE5?

Phoenix-D · #1 January 24th, 2007, 06:41 PM

That is, er, the poll he's complaining about.

PDF · #2 January 25th, 2007, 12:29 PM

No, there's a real difference that has nothing to do with trends or buzz: compare to real life manual manipulation, with your hands you take an object, keep it in hands then put it elsewhere, you can't take it and then put it without having carried it in the meantime !

So drag&drop is more "natural" as it's closer to real life behavior.

Atrocities · #3 January 25th, 2007, 01:06 PM

The Log window is one such area that could use some attention. Scrolling through tones and tones of combat info is not helpful. This information should be minimized and only expanded if the player wishes it.

The fact that when you click on an object featuring details in the main screen, say a planet or a ship, all you get is a larger, useless image of that object. However there is this small little icon that you click and it brings up item information. I think these need to be switched. You click on the item, you should get that items information, not a larger image of it.

I posted about improving information on the main screen when you have a planet with several ships in orbit, currently the system provides no intuitiveness and you must click on each individual item to determine its status. I think this area should be improved along the lines of what I have already posted about. (Had an image and all.)

Image Link

Azselendor · #4 January 25th, 2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Atrocities said:
Image Link

I definitely agree with those assessments there. I see you also like a simpler game with that little "cheat code" prompt .

Azselendor · #5 January 25th, 2007, 01:13 PM

To point out, the MIT BlackJack team coined Forced Simplification by reducing the game of blackjack from 52 cards (or 104 depending on style) to a scoring of 3 cards.

PDF points out a key point of forced simplification is that it is about the most natural behavior is the most preferred.

Another example of is demonstrated in Apple's keynote speech that introduced the iPhone and further demonstrated when placed against any other smart phone.

http://www.apple.com/
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf07/

Google is yet another example of forcing something complex to be simple to use when compared to the previous top dog, yahoo.
http://www.yahoo.com/ vs. http://www.google.com/

Now while your opinion may be that it is a buzzword, I should point out that games developed with easy of use, usability, and accessibility in mind frequently preform better in the market than ones that are not. Same goes for products in the market, websites, and many more.

The best example of this is the Shopping Cart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_cart#History

President_Elect_Shang · #6 January 25th, 2007, 01:51 PM

@PDF: You may think that would be the case. But you can't compare a mouse operation to holding something. Two totally different sets of movements are going on. Not the least of which is the orientation of the hand. Sorry but hominids are my field of training and while what you say sounds logical it just doesn't hold true. Now if natural is being used in place of easy than I would agree, a drag and drop operation is easier to perform. However, that has nothing to do with natural, easy is not always natural. Just look out your window and think how easy it is to make a 100 mile trip driving your car as opposed to walking. That's easy, but its not natural.

Azselendor · #7 January 25th, 2007, 01:59 PM

A car is not natural, but it is natural to our habits, so is its design overall. Consider all the little features in cars that have come and gone because they, while some designer thought it was useful, aren't that useful in reality.

President_Elect_Shang · #8 January 25th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Azselendor said:
A car is not natural, but it is natural to our habits, so is its design overall. Consider all the little features in cars that have come and gone because they, while some designer thought it was useful, aren't that useful in reality.

That is the point, it is not natural. There is a difference between natural and easy. Easy may be based on habit but that does not make it automatically natural. Civilization is not natural, small groups are but civilization is easier than small groups for security, survival and so forth. You are still interchanging the two terms. The car may have been a poor example. I used it since both achieve a natural goal. The desire to move from point A to point B. That is hominid nature and extends to most every species on the planet. Cars make it easy to achieve a goal; despite the motives. In other words we are not sedentary, we don't have roots, we can't sit in one place our whole lives and survive. Again that does not make cars natural. By the same manner there is nothing natural about computers or using them. Also please keep in mind that habit does not mean natural. In most every case habit is shaped to achieve a natural goal. Anyway lets move along.

Even though I probably shouldn't go there... Geo is right. One of the big no-no's is to try a survey on the internet. The AAA would laugh you out of the profession if you even tried to base a research paper off an on-line survey. One of my professors went so far as to threaten an automatic failing grade if we tried it on any of our research papers. As SJ would put it On-line survey != Fair.

Azselendor · #9 January 25th, 2007, 05:15 PM

the thing about humans is that we are, by definition, outside of the rules of nature because of our behaviors. We manipulate and change our environment to make our lives easier. We didn't like walking, so we domesticated horses. Horses were too demanding, so we invented cars. We didn't like swimming so we invented boats, and so on. Now I admit there is nothing natural about a machine-made item, but then again comparing nature to machine makes about as much sense as comparing apples and oranges.

To me, SE5 (Danger! Returning to the topic), is a jarring experience for many veterans fans and newcomers because of its quagmire interface.

Now several of you denounced Drag and Drop, but I submit to you that without that function, you would not be able to tolerate using any computer for more than five minutes. Move a file using the same method of clicks in SE5 and my case is proven. Drag and Drop is a very natural function of Object Orientated Interfaces and I will say Aaron was a fool to ignore it.

Some day I will sit down and write out a nice big essay with pictures and a power point and all my little ideas on how to fix SE5 and why SE5 is behind SE3 and 4 in playability, but whatever.

Fyron · #10 January 25th, 2007, 05:20 PM

Drag and drop in a file browser is only tolerable because you can select as many items as you want at a time to move. If you had to drag and drop files one at a time, it would be really useless compared to cut and paste. My issue with drag and drop for adding components in SE5 is exactly that... you would only be able to do them one a time. You could not easily use shift to very quickly add 12 engines, if you had to use drag and drop.