Ritual bonus from magic sites

Baalz · #1 February 1st, 2007, 05:33 PM

Does anyone know if the ritual bonus given from some magic sites effects the extra gems put into global enchantments to increase their durability? Or Dispell/Fate of Oedipus for that matter? I guess anything you can pump more than the minimum number of gems into (domes, etc)....

Jack_Trowell · #2 February 1st, 2007, 05:44 PM

In dom2 there I had read about a bug (I think) that made only gems over the *base* cost used to augment the effective level.

So it means that you couldn't benefit from the reduced cost of the site if you wanted to add more gems (as gems used between te reduced cost and the original one were then wasted).

Don't know how it works with the current version

Meglobob · #3 February 1st, 2007, 06:03 PM

I think Jack Trowell is spot on here. However remember you cast it at the exact reduced cost but use a very powerful mage, like your pretender for example. This will make the global harder to dispell/replace.

DrPraetorious · #4 February 1st, 2007, 06:17 PM

I had understood that more expensive globals - as in, with a higher base cost - were harder to dispel.

This is not the case? What is the exact mechanic, does anyone know?

PhilD · #5 February 1st, 2007, 06:20 PM

I didn't check the manual (I would if I had it as a searchable PDF file), but I seem to remember that difficulty depends on the dispeller's penetration, and a comparison of how many extra gems are used by both the dispeller and the original ritual. If this is correct, then using a site with a ritual bonus is effectively useless when using extra gems, because you need extra gems over the "normal" cost of the spell to get the benefit.

Evilhomer · #6 February 1st, 2007, 06:21 PM

page 88 in the manual...

and for all you who have mysteriously misplaced your manual I can atleast give a hint that base cost of the global does not factor in....

incognito · #7 February 2nd, 2007, 11:22 AM

So this kind of sucks. Is it a true bug or a deliberate move by the developers to limit the impact of bonus sites?

Kalin · #8 February 2nd, 2007, 11:53 AM

I'm pretty sure it's just an oversight. Instead of doing something like this:

Gems Spent - (Cost x (1 - bonus))= extra gems (assuming bonus is a percentage multiplier like .20)

they went with the simpler version of:

Gems Spent - Cost = extra gems

Of course this oversight has been around since... pretty much forever, so they just kinda kept it around as one of those hidden rules to make new players crazy. A throw back to the old days perhaps? Who knows... It's just that everyone who's been around for a while knows about it, and frankly it's not really that bad IMO, so there's really no outcry for it to change anytime soon.

FYI: your extra gems is compared with their extra gems, and the one that used more wins the global slot (or kills it in the case of Dispel). Or in the case of domes, the extra gems = the duration of the spells. The ritual bonus doesn't do anything in these cases unless you're just casting them at the base with no extra gems (for various situations).

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Fates of Oedipus always destroys the Eye... (I don't think it even has an extra gem box). Of course that could just be me not getting enough sleep.

Hellboy · #9 February 2nd, 2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Kalin said:
Of course this oversight has been around since... pretty much forever, so they just kinda kept it around as one of those hidden rules to make new players crazy. A throw back to the old days perhaps? Who knows... It's just that everyone who's been around for a while knows about it, and frankly it's not really that bad IMO, so there's really no outcry for it to change anytime soon.

But if I understand this correctly, it really is quite bad.

I played a few Dom 2 games a while back (apparently before this fact was discovered), and as I recall in the end game, it was the extra gems that far and away dominated the question of whose global spells stayed up. One of the more practical ways the weaker nations could gang up on the front runner was to pool gems in order to dispel that front runner's globals. I know that in my games, in our diplomacy, we always assumed the formula applied was even more generous than your Kalin, in that bonus percentage applied even to the extra gems, something more like:

extra gems = [Gems spent - (Cost x (1 - 0.2))] x 1.2

The upshot of what you are all saying is that these sites are next to useless in MP games, at least for global spells.

Has anyone tested this empirically in Dom3?

Manuk · #10 February 2nd, 2007, 05:52 PM

it�s not useless. you get the discount at the base cost. and in the enchantment tree you will find death "summons" and discounts come handy.

Info if I don't remeber wrong is in the manual with the exact dispel formula.

I like the most the construction bonus. if you get the bonus=20 site, an ulmish smith and a dwarven hammer it's 75% discount. I had that.