Strategy for taking out big AT guns

[Cross]

Captain_Insano said:
In general there is a mind set I forced myself in to once I got more experienced playing this game. At first I was having unacceptably high tank losses because I liked using them. They are fast and cool! Now my mind set is to use infantry to minimize tank losses rather than using tanks to minimize "overall casualties". It's not pleasant to think about what this would mean in real life but consider in game terms that the points value for a single tank is approximately equivalent to an entire platoon of infantry. Also consider that an infantry section can be hit 6 times or so while a hit on a tank usually means the whole thing is toast.

I think there is a lot of wisdom in this. I believe infantry rule the battlefield, as long as they have the right support.

The tank is a support weapon. Like all support weapons they have a limited usefulness and have vulnerabilities. They don't have the versatility of infantry, they can't hold ground or take and defend a position as effectively as troops. (like hold and defend a wood or village)

The way I see it, the tanks role, even in a big tank battle, is ultimately to support the infantry who are the ones who most effectively defend terrain.

I think battles are won when you are able to use each weapon/unit according to its strength, especially when you are able to exploit the weakness of each unit type of your opponent.

That's why I much prefer SPWW2 over other versions, the infantry in this game are far more realistically modelled.


Cross

[vic]

AT guns in this game should have a life expectancy right up there with gazelles at a lion convention. smoke 'em and shell 'em. i never buy them against a human player because they are fragile, pricey (compare the cost of ATG+truck vs. a similarly armed tank) and relatively immobile. they get off shots for one, maybe two turns and are history. [loading units can't move far especially in cover/rough and loaded ATGs are way vulnerable to arty.] and they can't move AND shoot! since the advent of "move penalty to load" (a good thing btw) their value has declined even more. i believe infantry AT is a much better buy.

other than another (approrpriately armed and armored) AFV the most effective AT unit in the game is, IMHO, infantry. though this is less true against human opponents than the AI. human opponents typically don't run AFVs into dense cover unsupported so they can be close-assaulted.

the best AT guns are those with no HE ammo as they won't pop off (disclosing their presence) at soft targets. the A/C recon types earn their keep by drawing ATG fire (and yeah, they get crushed) before pricier types get dinged.

beating ATGs basically involves terrain appraisal. 1. don't run AFVs where an ATG would have good LOS at "killing range". 2. look for spots in enemy controlled terrain that offer opportunitites for item 1. stay off the ridgelines! if i have an ATG fire at me more than once (from the same position) i am embarrassed.

avoiding heavy AT is all about proper scouting. scouts do more than find enemy units; they're actually best at finding AT effective-range LOS hexes. i use them in "series" the "1" unit first the "0" second. once the "1" unit gains a good spot it moves on and the "0" unit moves to that hex to observe for indirect fire.

against human opponents move so as to be able to to "see" (LOS) good ATG placement hexes:

1. forward-screened hexes that provide good north/south (flank) shooting
2. hexes that have no LOS to other hexes within small arms range [small arms are ATG killers]
3. hexes that have an ADJACENT concealed hex (good for retreating suppressed crews to or for parking carriers OR for placing ammo trucks, if you use ammo trucks.)

etc.

on many maps there are remarkably few GOOD spots to place heavy ATGs. do the devil's advocate thing, i.e. "where wouldn't i want one to be" and against a human player it's probably there.

against the AI shell the whole area suspected of ATGs because where there is one there will be another (or two).

MGs were formerly more effective in area fire ("z" key) against potential ATG positions but they're still not bad.

when you're in ATG country use "locked" smoke from IDF weapons. [plot the smoke and turn the weapons slot off, "blue"]. the smoke stays plotted, won't fire and is available with minimal delay. don't fire the smoke until you have scouted LOS's first to determine likely/acutal ATG positions.

against a human player once you have a good idea about where the ATG is, pile in the HE and keep it coming. ATGs are very high value targets (and fragile) so they can provide pretty generous "kill points". they can't move easily. if they're capable of unassisted movement any such movement makes them more vulnerable and if loaded on a carrier even MORE vulnerable. against the AI it doesn't matter because the AI doesn't move arty much other than retreating and will never LOAD arty onto a carrier.

when buying arty/indirect don't "overbuy the map". get your money's worth. part of unit cost is range. why buy an on-map gun with a range of 120+ hexes if playing on (e.g.) a 50hx70w map?

to me, the scariest AT pieces (against a human) are [early war] the GB 2 pounder and [mid war] the GB 6 pounder. the GE 88 is vastly overrated (game-wise), not to mention over-priced. it's almost too expensive to expose to fire of any sort. human players spend more time hiding them than shooting them! (I know I did.)

the worst situation is probably heavily wooded terrain. elevation is tough to recognize visually and running the cursor over the map and reading hex heights is tedious. either be thorough or resign yourself to some losses or scout like crazy.

a little trick you can try against a human opponent if you HAVE ATGs. when the opponent fires smoke to screen your ATGs off, let it work. if he has scoped out where you are the HE is coming and you can't do much about that. if he put the smoke in the wrong place, hold fire for a turn or two. he'll pile the HE in on the wrong hex and feel safe in leaving his armor exposed where it is. maybe he'll even move more into the same area. oh happy day.

caution, this usually works only once...don't push it.

give this stuff a shot and i think you'll be fine.

best,
vic

sample cost data:

GE 5cm PaK = 38, truck = 12, total = 50
vs.
GE Pz IIIj = 61, plus better mobility (tracked), move & shoot, armor, MGs etc.

my estimate of a reasonable (what i'd be willing to pay) cost for the ATG+truck combination is 15-20, more if you feel the truck has additional value as ancillary transport (i.e. other units).

GE 88mm FlaK 18 (HE/AP 50/20) = 68
Ammo truck (unlimited ammo) = 25

GE 88mm FlaK 36 (HE/AP 20/50) = 109
same weapon (#59) so who buys the 36? one would be lucky to get off 12 shots from either and IF one could move successfully a quick stop to "reload" solves the ammo difference.

[Charles22]

vic: Thanks for explaining about the 88's differences. AT first I was going to tell you the 36 is better, and that I indeed do buy it, because I use the gun in limited ways. Typically I might place it behind a hill or somewhere where it might have a very limited view. Basically what I am looking for is a crack is visibility to where it will engage enemy armor without ever having to go up against more than 2-3 tanks at a time. It's meant to be a difference maker and not a dominaant piece in my army. At least early on, it's survival from battle to battle is the most important thing, as I want a very good crew by the time of the USSR attacks.

Yes, I do give the 88's their own transport, but it's always with support transport instead of that being in the core.

While I have no difficulty with the guns surviving because I limit the opposition against them and can also pull them out at any time, the other side of your quotient has to be taken into account, and that is the number of AP shells and the cost. I have always bought the 36 ones, but I think I will start going with the 18's from now on. The resons are that it creates something of a difficulty early in the game to be buying a 109pt unit in core, but also due to my limited use doctrine I also don't need 50 shots even should they always survive. I would like to caution one consideration however, and though I don't have the game in front of me now, it seemed to me the 36 had some other advantage such as better optics, but I could be wrong.

[narwan]

Indeed, Flak 16 has FC 8 and RF 6. Flak 36 has FC 10 and RF 8. There's also a version available of the 36 which has 35 AP rounds and 35 HE rounds. It's availability ends in dec '40. Cost is 94 at exp 70.

Narwan

[Charles22]

That makes the decision more difficult. I think I shade back towards the 36 then, as it will be needed to bring down at least 3-4 T34's or KV's per battle.