Balance without a Mod? A Discussion (Long)

[Velusion]

quantum_mechani said:
I think this idea is a pretty promising, if you could really get semi accurate nation-design-point-costs that would be pretty interesting. But I do have my doubts that issues like the one KissBlade pointed out, and the average experience level of players, could achieve that.

Well to address these doubts:

KissBlade's assumption I think is founded on the fact that there is an exact perfect number of points needed to supply a dual bless strategy (F9/W9 I assume). There is more than a simple bless stratgey that goes into a pretender. Other things you need to factor in:

Pretender Form
Dominion Strength
6 Different Scales
Extra Magic
Awake/Dorment/Imprisoned

Kissblade's assumption doesn't factor these in at all. It assumes that there is a nation out there that is worth dual bless with the very worst scales, the worst pretender, no extra magic with a 1 Domain. Are we saying that Helheim with ONLY a W9/F9 and the very worst in everything else can beat a Vanheim in a better position?

Personally I think it is statistically implausible if not impossible that two people would agree on the exact maximum bid on a pretender for any nation. Dominion is a huge swing... how low would most go? What about scales - can you take them ALL bad? When do you throw in the towel and decide another nation is a better deal?

At first it looks like all you need is a dual bless, but people often forget the minimum foundation needed for a successful pretender. Dual bless isn't enough - you need, at the very minimum, SOME dominion. This is where the disagreements will occur and the bidding will be interesting.

And some people are not exactly even bless-only fans - they won't even consider bidding that high!

As far as experience - the good thing about bidding is that provided you have a handful of experienced knowledgeable players they will keep each other in check - even if some are not as experienced. An experienced player will not let a perceived low bid go unmatched. Multiple experienced players will make sure that no one person takes advantage of the less experienced players through checks and balances.

quantum_mechani said:And, of course, balance between nations is a drop in the bucket compared to all the other kinds of balance issues there are.

Of that - I personally agree. I've looked at your Conceptual Balance mod and liked (for the most part) what you've tried to do. I suppose I'm a member of the camp that likes more options. Some might call the changes arbitrary - but its a mod, not the gospel. I hope to play it someday.

But at least a reasonable community evaluation of the relative worth of nations can be used now - by everyone - without a mod. I know that if such a community valuation existed it would helpful to newbies... not as a hard rule (it would forever be debated), but as additional informative data.

Thanks for the comments!