Spies and unrest

[Saxon]

Spies and unrest. I have not tested this extensively, but every time my LE Man spies have tried to instill unrest, they are immediately caught and killed. I also understand that if an enemy instills unrest in one of your provinces, you get a warning message.

It seems to me that in multiplayer, spies are going to get caught very quickly, much faster than in Dom 2. You have no hope the other player will not notice for a few turns and then start patrolling and/or increasing PD. Further, it seems that spies get caught pretty quick by regular levels of PD.

Have I just been unlucky, or has there been a real nerfing of spies and unrest?

Are there any good suggestions on how to use them well? My favorite target has always been the enemy capital, as you can limit their special troop recruiting. Rich provinces were the second choice.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Meglobob]

I have used the bards +30 stealth of MA Man very, very effectively in MP. I assemble a squad of 5-6 and move them next to a castle/production centre I want to close down permantly. If there are no large forces patrolling, I move them in and start raising that unrest to over 100. I like to support them with hurricane, blight, locusts and raging hearts to speed the process up/give my bards a head start.

Unrest helps bards/spies avoid detection, so when it tops 100+ I have found a enemy nation has really no chance of getting it below 100 or discovering your spies.

Its a powerful tactic. You are attacking a enemies production, income and limiting his available cash.

[Saxon]

Nice tip! So, if unrest is down at zero, the spy has a good chance of getting caught. That is valuable information. If I can hit them with some spells, then drop the spies in, success is more likely.

I don’t remember any items that boost stealth, but have been wrong before. Are there any? (Yes, I have a manual, yes I bought the game. I am at work avoiding working…)

[Meglobob]

AFAIK there are no items which give or boost stealth. I find this very disappointing.

My MA Man bards very, very rarely got detected. Over 50 turns with perhaps 100+ bards, I perhaps lost 6 or so to enemy patrolling.

I use them as researchers, excellent scouts and then as another means of attack during a war. Ruining a enemies production/economy has a bad effect on a players morale in MP.

[Saxon]

Hmm, the Bards have +30 stealth. My units in LA are +0, which is not very inspiring. I agree, some magic to help boost this would be very nice, though it might push the +30 units into the untouchable range. Still, if I can go for volume, I might be able to make up for it. Must check if they are capital only.

Unrest doesn’t effect gems. Can anyone confirm that?

[Aleph]

Yes, I can confirm that.

Pangea also has Satyr Sneaks who increase unrest in a province without the need for initiating an increase unrest action, via seducing farmer's daughters and wives (I'm not kidding). They are quite stealthy and can rapidly drive up unrest. My favorite aspect of their skills, though, is that to top it all off you can lead them with Dryads, who are capable of stealth preaching. So you have stealth preachers who are also able to drive up protective levels of unrest to prevent themselves from getting caught - three Dryads with full loads of 40 sneaks is a relatively small investment to shut down a fortress and knock it out of enemy dominion. A great twofer.

[thejeff]

Unrest does not affect gems.

I've noticed something odd about catching spies.
SP game, playing MA Ulm, I've had a bunch of spies causing unrest in Pythium's capital for awhile now. He rarely catches any, but when he does he seems to catch all of them.
The first time, I'd just started and assumed he'd just boosted his patrollers. The second time I already had roughly 150 unrest there. He had the standard capital 25 PD and judging from the troops that attacked my poor spies another 60 or so patrolling. With the penalty from unrest his chances should have been slim, but he caught all 4 spies.

Is the roll only made once for patrolling, so if he got a good open-ended roll all stealthy units are likely to be caught?

[PhilD]

interesting catch, thejeff - but I seem to recall that probability of getting caught is supposed to be linked to the "army size" - so it seems to make sense that several spies/scouts/whatever are detected together, and the more, the easier.

What this means is that your spies collaborate, they're not independent, dormant agents. So it would make sense if several different scouts gave widely more accurate reports

[thejeff]

Army size, yes, but from the explanation in the manual that seems to apply to sneaking troops, not commanders.

I don't think it explicitly states each commander (and any squads he commands) are dealt with separately, but it is implied.

And I know I've seen only one of several scouts get caught.

I'd guess it's one patrol roll compared to a sneak roll for each commander. This produces reasonable results in normal conditions when the chances are decent, but when a really good open ended roll is required, you'll either catch none or all.

[Meglobob]

thejeff said:
Army size, yes, but from the explanation in the manual that seems to apply to sneaking troops, not commanders.

I don't think it explicitly states each commander (and any squads he commands) are dealt with separately, but it is implied.

Implied and it is actually the case. 5 spies have a seperate check to be caught. When all of yours got caught they must have all failed there seperate checks, producing just 1 battle. I have had several occassions when 1/5 or 2/5 have been caught by patrollers but the rest escaped detection.

Even a scout, effectively has +40 on the die roll to avoid detection (this is default stealth), a bard has +70 has he has a further +30 bonus. Every troop you lead without a large plus to stealth themselves gives you -1. So a scout for example with a command magic item leading 40 wolves would have +0 stealth and would be easily detected by PD/patrols.