12.7mm does it deserve the range?

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Are you telling me the AP round range for a 20mm round is less than 2000m? surely not. In any case what you are saying is interesting enough but not particularily relevant to my argument, here it is in summary.

Here is a quote from Don
"Does this mean they (12.7mm) get a longer than is likely normal direct fire range ?
Yes."
So we have already established that 2000m is too long a range for direct fire for 12.7 13.2 and 15mm HMG
Why? because they are firing over open iron sights which dont work much past 1200, see the second post in the thread.

So, unless a telescopic sight is fitted all 12.7mm & co weapons firing direct should have a 1500m range.

except

Tripod mounted HMGs can fire indirect, so to allow for this they have the 2000m range as this is independant of the iron sights, fair enough.
But... under 2000m 7.62mm HMGs can also easily indirect fire to 2000m so they should also have a range of 2000m because they also are tripod mounfed HMGs. In any case under 2000m there is no reason to dirrerentiate between the 7.62 and 12.7 calibres for indirect fire range.

Lastly there is a whole swag of weapons in the 12.7mm category that arent on tripods and so cant fire indirect, and so should only have 1500m range, but have the 2000m range. Ive listed most of them above.
Sounds sensibe to me anyway.
Im sure you realise this but of course but when you say these weapons fire HE you mean they fire solid shot and have an in-game HE rating.
Also I have a question for you,
If the 15mm is firing solid shot and 20mm AP is solid shot shouldnt the 20mm then have at least as good a range as the 15mm and dont worry that the 20mm HE shot can go either further?
Best Chuck.

[narwan]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Narwan
Are you telling me the AP round range for a 20mm round is less than 2000m? surely not. In any case what you are saying is interesting enough but not particularily relevant to my argument, here it is in summary.

EFFECTIVE range, ie the range at which it can still penetrate armor. That's what the game works with. If you think a 20mm AP round can still penetrate armor of 1 cm or more at 2000m please show me the data. It is quite relevant as you brought up 20mm weapons yourself to support your views on how the range of hmg's should be modeled. So highlighting the difference between the two with regards to how the game system treats them is pretty relevant.

chuckfourth said:
In any case under 2000m there is no reason to dirrerentiate between the 7.62 and 12.7 calibres for indirect fire range.

There is, the weight of the rounds and environmental effects on the rounds for the high ranges. These do affect the 7.62 rounds much more than they do the 12.7 mm rounds. You may not feel these have enough effect to warrant the differences as present in the game but that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason. You just don't agree with it.

chuckfourth said:
Lastly there is a whole swag of weapons in the 12.7mm category that arent on tripods and so cant fire indirect, and so should only have 1500m range, but have the 2000m range. Ive listed most of them above.

This point you actually counter yourself in the very same post and I quote:
"So, unless a telescopic sight is fitted all 12.7mm & co weapons firing direct should have a 1500m range"

In other words, the weapons do have a range higher than 1500m. They just can't effectively aim at a target using iron sights according to you. Using the hmg's in the indirect mode means per defenition you are not aiming at a specific target but a more general area. The targetting device isn't relevant for this function. Iron sights are good enough to fire at a more general area at ranges over 1500m as opposed to a specific target.

chuckfourth said:
Sounds sensibe to me anyway.
Im sure you realise this but of course but when you say these weapons fire HE you mean they fire solid shot and have an in-game HE rating.
Also I have a question for you,
If the 15mm is firing solid shot and 20mm AP is solid shot shouldnt the 20mm then have at least as good a range as the 15mm and dont worry that the 20mm HE shot can go either further?
Best Chuck.

15mm HE solid shot vs 20mm AP solid shot? Is that what you mean? Same argument as above. EFFECTIVE range for the AP designated round (game mechanics wise) is relevant here. I don't disagree that a HE 'solid shot' will travel further and can do damage to soft targets at greater distance than that the AP 'solid shot' can travel and do damage to armored targets. But both have to use the same range value in the game. So whichever way you go, it will always be a compromise.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Boy this is tedious.
The in-game ranges are not the ranges at which a gun can penetrate 1 cm of armour they are the ranges at which a gun can hit a target.
By environmental effects you mean wind, if its windy move the gun a bit to the left or right, no? (did you maybe notice above that Ive shown that the 7.62 calibre is stable to 2000m)
The point is that the extra 500m is for 'unseen' area targets ie you arnt using the sights. We have already established that 2000m is too long a range for direct fire.
There is no such thing as HE solid shot.
Please read and digest the previous posts before responding.
Chuck.

[narwan]

Tedious indeed. Skirt around it all you want. MY point in reply to something which YOU brought up is that you can't simply compare 20mm's and hmg's with regards to range. The end.
Enjoy the rest of your opinions.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

HI Narwan
No Im not skirting around it, I already pointed out that your definition of in-game range is incorrect.
So OK what range are you talking about, indirect, direct, effective or armour peircing?
and are you talking about the real range or in-game range?
Please try relate your answer to whats already been said in the thread. Or at least read them.
Chuck

[DRG]

I've locked out this thread. The subject is closed.

Don