Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

Kuritza · #1 March 5th, 2007, 10:44 AM

Same applies to middle age vanheim, by the way. They have same dual-blessable sacreds, which completely decimate any PD and cannot be caught. Throw in commanders which can reach defence 30 - in my test games, three dual-blessed van commanders with some simple items crafted with construction level 4 were killing a fully equipped Sea King troll SC (without casualties, of course).

Lightining doesnt kill vans, frozen heart is a lvl6 spell and it doesnt kill vans too unless you use powerful mages.
On top of it einheres are one of the strongest infantry units in the middle age.
I simply dont know how to stop a dual-blessed vanheim, it's got no weaknesses. I'd suggest giving non-commander vans 10 hitpoints and removing glamour defense bonus (mirror image is enough, really).

Gandalf Parker · #2 March 5th, 2007, 12:41 PM

I dont think the numbers are quite that unanimous (not that it would matter even if it were). And in case you didnt, put me in that othr group

I think that threads like this collect people who agree with it so I wouldnt measure the responses that way. Plus you can always write off new players (no offense meant to anyone) but it seems that every nation they try during the learning curve ends up striking them as a problem because the balance is in the next nation they try.

Remember that in this game, the balance isnt between each nation. Its more of a rock-paper-scissors balance. As long as there is a nation which can beat a nation, then there is balance. We might not like it but it aint broke.

Kuritza · #3 March 5th, 2007, 12:51 PM

To be honest, new players dont find Vanheim that evil. In our community, we have quite some newcomers who keep advising 'its ok, just build more heavy infantry' or 'use mages'. Its old players who started with Dominions 1 think that dual-blessed vanheim is the most scary nation there is at the moment. Myself included.
As for the rock-paper-scissors - to be honest, I am yet to find a nation that doesnt have problems with Vanheim. Even if there is one, its one out of how many? Something's wrong with it.

Gandalf Parker · #4 March 5th, 2007, 02:20 PM

Most of the "problems" with Vanheim seem to be problems going head to head. Most of the answers to it seem to be defense, magic, stealth, etc. If the same tactics are being used then there will always be a "usually wins". I wouldnt want all nations to be balanced to where army-vs-army is the designing factor. The nations I most like to play do their "balancing" by using othr tactics than just my army is bigger than your army.

Meglobob · #5 March 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

Its all been discussed before and its always players who are fairly new to the game who complain. Look on defeating those nations as a challenge.

Neither nation has come anywhere near winning any MP I have played in and I have played alot. Those games are on 15 prov/player maps. Small 1 on 1 blitz games is a different story and Vanheim/Hellheim walk over most other nations but I do not play those so no problem for me.

Teraswaerto · #6 March 5th, 2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Meglobob · #7 March 5th, 2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Teraswaerto said:

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

lch · #8 March 5th, 2007, 02:33 PM

I think the issue here is that unexperienced people suffer extraordinary defeats compared to normal combat unless they develop and use "anti" tactics as somebody said (even if in some cases, it's just: "use magic"), instead of being able to just use a naive "My army is bigger than your army" assessment of the situation like they normally use to do. I don't want to generalize and say that everybody who says that Vans/Hels are unbalanced (hello? earth/nature bless Niefel? Ermor?) is an unexperienced newb, but that's the conclusion that they usually come to and they get exited about here on the forums.

Kuritza · #9 March 5th, 2007, 02:49 PM

Once again. I'm not an unexperienced player. I have played Domionions 1 and Dominions 2, some blitzes and pbem games in Dominions 3, some of these won. I know how to use magic etc, BUT:

In one of the games I play atm I have to face a e9/w9 vanheim as a MA Tien Chi. He rummages through my provinces and I cannot do much against him. Lightning bolt doesnt kill his units, falling frost is entirely useless because of defense check, gifts from heaven arent reliable against small and fast armies (not to mention I cant send my mages with crafted boots to all provinces he may or may not attack), frozen heart is not researched yet but even that is only useful with my capitol-only mages because vans have +3 hit points, my regular troops are scattering like dust without doing any damage. I have three SK Sea King trolls who can kill any amount of such vans (did some tests), but two or three vanjarls with simple equipment can kill him with 100% decree of success.

Gandalf, you say I shouldnt go head to head? Sorry, couldnt you elaborate how should I survive his raiding then? Not going head to head with Vanheim means playing on his own field - I wont outraid him, you cant raid better than 2-blessed Vanheim. Oh, before you mention it, there are two or three consorts in each of his provinces. Yet my income keeps dwindling while his stays the same thanks to the raiding.
Vanheim dies easily in late game? I beg to differ, he STILL has vastly superior troops and magic that matches my own (air 3, earth 3).

thejeff · #10 March 5th, 2007, 02:40 PM

Except of course double blessed Van troops, or worse Hellheim, are also undetectable stealthy raiders. Small groups of them can trash much more expensive armies and then either disappear or join together to beat more serious forces.

I'm suspicious of claims that it must be balanced because there are so many options that something must work.

Of course the heims can be beaten. In early game, by other uber-bless nations or maybe SC pretenders, or more likely alliances. Late game they're not so strong, unless they got enough advantage from early victories.

I'm not sure "can be stopped by 2-3 enemies after wiping out the nearest neighbors" counts as balanced.
But maybe I haven't played enough multiplayer.