Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[thejeff]

Except of course double blessed Van troops, or worse Hellheim, are also undetectable stealthy raiders. Small groups of them can trash much more expensive armies and then either disappear or join together to beat more serious forces.

I'm suspicious of claims that it must be balanced because there are so many options that something must work.

Of course the heims can be beaten. In early game, by other uber-bless nations or maybe SC pretenders, or more likely alliances. Late game they're not so strong, unless they got enough advantage from early victories.

I'm not sure "can be stopped by 2-3 enemies after wiping out the nearest neighbors" counts as balanced.
But maybe I haven't played enough multiplayer.

[Gandalf Parker]

Try playing larger maps, fewer AIs, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

[Kuritza]

Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

[Gandalf Parker]

Kuritza said:
Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

[Kuritza]

Gandalf Parker said:Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

It doesnt work like that. I cant set up a multiplayer game like 'you choose Pangaea and go guerilla to prevent Vanheim from eating too many provinces'.

Our map was large, and we had 10 players in the beginning -a big game. Now there are four less players, and nobody gangs Vanheim so I can perceive these 2x blessed raiders in their prime.
Btw, Pangaea in hit'n'run mode was rushed by the apes, Caelum was raided by said Vanheim while warring against Ulm, and is soon to be killed by Rlyeh, Abyssia was destroyed by Vanheim in the very beginning and is now supplying him with fire gems. So... I still fail to see how big games make Vanheim any more 'balanced' unless all players are experienced enough to gang him first.
As for the imbalance treads - no, SCs arent imbalanced because 1) they can be countered rather easily 2) all nations can have them. For example, 2-x bless Vanheim can counter MY sc's just be giving 2-3 commanders 2-3 easily craftable items and setting them to attack. I checked it in a test game - works like a charm. Defense 30, mirror image, AP weapon, water bless quickness. He cant hit them, they kill him in two rounds.

As for the statistics... It just proves some of the arguments mentioned here. Like, people tend to gang the strongest nations first. Pythium, Ermor, Vanheim are such nations. Ulm is perhaps the weakest, and ironically, thats why people often ignore them until they can drown everyone in their knights and infantry, backing them up by indie mages, golems and the like. Such thing will most likely happen in our current game btw - its turn 35, I am gonna be exhausted even if I defeat Vanheim so Ulm will get all the spoils of at. He will claim enough victory points to win, unless Rlyeh backstabs him with his amassed Ctulhus.

P.S.
I'm absolutely fine with some imbalances in this game - if anything they make Dominions 3 more fun and add depth to the game world. But vans are just too much, everything got its limits.

[Gandalf Parker]

That all sounds good to me. Im still not convinced of something needing fixed. The devs might decide to tweak it abit but I dont see it as broken.

[Kuritza]

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.