Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

Gandalf Parker · #1 March 5th, 2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Kuritza said:
Gandalf, I'm sorry, but my post was about multiplayer. No AIs, only human players - were this Vanheim computer-controlled, I'd trample him with my SCs and call it a day.
So my point still stands, what am I missing? People say that only inexperienced players complain about Vanheim, I'm open to their suggestions. Situation is explained above.

Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

Kuritza · #2 March 5th, 2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

It doesnt work like that. I cant set up a multiplayer game like 'you choose Pangaea and go guerilla to prevent Vanheim from eating too many provinces'.

Our map was large, and we had 10 players in the beginning -a big game. Now there are four less players, and nobody gangs Vanheim so I can perceive these 2x blessed raiders in their prime.
Btw, Pangaea in hit'n'run mode was rushed by the apes, Caelum was raided by said Vanheim while warring against Ulm, and is soon to be killed by Rlyeh, Abyssia was destroyed by Vanheim in the very beginning and is now supplying him with fire gems. So... I still fail to see how big games make Vanheim any more 'balanced' unless all players are experienced enough to gang him first.
As for the imbalance treads - no, SCs arent imbalanced because 1) they can be countered rather easily 2) all nations can have them. For example, 2-x bless Vanheim can counter MY sc's just be giving 2-3 commanders 2-3 easily craftable items and setting them to attack. I checked it in a test game - works like a charm. Defense 30, mirror image, AP weapon, water bless quickness. He cant hit them, they kill him in two rounds.

As for the statistics... It just proves some of the arguments mentioned here. Like, people tend to gang the strongest nations first. Pythium, Ermor, Vanheim are such nations. Ulm is perhaps the weakest, and ironically, thats why people often ignore them until they can drown everyone in their knights and infantry, backing them up by indie mages, golems and the like. Such thing will most likely happen in our current game btw - its turn 35, I am gonna be exhausted even if I defeat Vanheim so Ulm will get all the spoils of at. He will claim enough victory points to win, unless Rlyeh backstabs him with his amassed Ctulhus.

P.S.
I'm absolutely fine with some imbalances in this game - if anything they make Dominions 3 more fun and add depth to the game world. But vans are just too much, everything got its limits.

Gandalf Parker · #3 March 5th, 2007, 05:18 PM

That all sounds good to me. Im still not convinced of something needing fixed. The devs might decide to tweak it abit but I dont see it as broken.

Kuritza · #4 March 5th, 2007, 05:25 PM

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.

thejeff · #5 March 5th, 2007, 05:42 PM

Thoughts on your SCs.

Sea Kings aren't particularly great SCs, but if they're what you've got to work with.

Try area affect attacks. Defense shields.
Definitely fire resistance. He'll still hit, but the 6ap won't work.
Eye shield. Fire shield. Vine shield to reduce his defense.
Any damage will break the mirror image.
Snake bladders, make your SC poison immune first. (I don't know if poison gets rid of the mirror image.)

Sea trolls have horrid Attack and Defense, so I'm not sure any of that will be enough, but try it out.

Kuritza · #6 March 5th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Thejeff -
My sea kings have:
100% FR
100% CR
100% LR
Vine shield.
Chill aura.
(very nasty combo btw)
Fire brand sword.
Enough rejuvenation to make him not get tired with quickness on.
Attack of 16+ and defense of 20+, not sure about the numbers.
He kills any national troops or summons, but dies to vanheim recruitable commander )))

Btw, try this King setup, it works. Rainbow armor, vine shield, fire brand, dragon helmet, messengers boots, rest up to you. Breath of winter, quickness.

thejeff · #7 March 5th, 2007, 07:01 PM

Then what do the vanjarls do to them?
How are they equipped?

I'd be tempted to try 2 shields. Charcoal & Vine? You're not hitting them anyway.

PDF · #8 March 6th, 2007, 08:54 AM

We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear...

CharonJr · #9 March 6th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

Kuritza · #10 March 6th, 2007, 10:52 AM

Mictlan poses problem to anyone.

But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)