Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

Kuritza · #1 March 5th, 2007, 05:25 PM

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.

thejeff · #2 March 5th, 2007, 05:42 PM

Thoughts on your SCs.

Sea Kings aren't particularly great SCs, but if they're what you've got to work with.

Try area affect attacks. Defense shields.
Definitely fire resistance. He'll still hit, but the 6ap won't work.
Eye shield. Fire shield. Vine shield to reduce his defense.
Any damage will break the mirror image.
Snake bladders, make your SC poison immune first. (I don't know if poison gets rid of the mirror image.)

Sea trolls have horrid Attack and Defense, so I'm not sure any of that will be enough, but try it out.

Kuritza · #3 March 5th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Thejeff -
My sea kings have:
100% FR
100% CR
100% LR
Vine shield.
Chill aura.
(very nasty combo btw)
Fire brand sword.
Enough rejuvenation to make him not get tired with quickness on.
Attack of 16+ and defense of 20+, not sure about the numbers.
He kills any national troops or summons, but dies to vanheim recruitable commander )))

Btw, try this King setup, it works. Rainbow armor, vine shield, fire brand, dragon helmet, messengers boots, rest up to you. Breath of winter, quickness.

thejeff · #4 March 5th, 2007, 07:01 PM

Then what do the vanjarls do to them?
How are they equipped?

I'd be tempted to try 2 shields. Charcoal & Vine? You're not hitting them anyway.

Kuritza · #5 March 5th, 2007, 07:30 PM

He is hitting very, very hard. Two skill 16 attacks is good enough, especially after cold aura and shield soften the enemy down.
They only need three lvl4 items, one of them is armor piercing weapon. And a dual bless, of course. Regular units go down as grain too...
Something's wrong here in my opinion.

Gandalf Parker · #6 March 5th, 2007, 07:36 PM

Whose domain is the fighting in?
What scales are there?

Your previous posts make it sound as though the nations which could have held up against Vanheim were taken out by other players before they could do any good. That tends to be the way the game plays. It could just as easily have been early defeat of Ermors best enemy, or early defeat of Ulms. Thats the joy of rock-paper-scissors balance. If you take out all of the scissors, you might later regret it.

Kuritza · #7 March 5th, 2007, 08:26 PM

Domain doesnt matter, they kill troll either way in two rounds before morale kicks in. Most SCs wont hit them due to defense 30 and mirror images.

Vanheims neighbours were Abyssia (which he killed immediately), me as Tien Chi (busy fighting first Shinuyama, then Machaka), Caelum (who got ganked) and Ulm who didnt care about Vanheim.
No race should be THAT powerful against all nations but a few - because you cant count on these few races to be his neighbours, or not to be ganked by other players, or simply get rushed/raided to death by Vanheim himself.

PDF · #8 March 6th, 2007, 08:54 AM

We're beating a dead horse IMHO.
The combo of 20 def+glamour+fast+sacred+low res cost for a paltry 75 gold is a magnet for a high level bless (F9W9+)leading to a very unbalanced nation.
I've yet to find a way of countering Vanheim or Helheim before turn 25+ (if still alive). Last try was Arco vs Vanheim MA (F9W9N4), I get stomped and neither Elephants nor groups of astral mages scripted to Mind Burn and Paralyze had even marginal efficiency (considering battles opposing somewhat equal cost of troops).
Maybe Fire magic is more effective but I'm don't think it's enough before level 5.
When playing Vanheim the hardest fight I've had was against Machakan big sacred Black Hunters spiders (which had a F9N4 bless). But even then I beat them because they are much harder to produce en masse so they were overwhelmed (I had 80-some vans vs 30-35 spiders, because spiders cost 66% gold and 200% res MORE than a Van).
Worst thing is that when you lose you don't even have survivors as the ultra fast Vans wreak havoc in the rear...

CharonJr · #9 March 6th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Hmm, I have only played this vs. the AI, but could a heavy bless Mictlan (F9W9B4) pose some problems to Van in EA even in MP ?

Lots of small units with 2-3 attacks plus some devils for heat auras ?

IIRC those Vans just had a W4 or W6 bless, so W9 might have had a different result, but the Mictlan swarm might be able to overcome this higher bless, too.

CharonJr

Kuritza · #10 March 6th, 2007, 10:52 AM

Mictlan poses problem to anyone.

But think of it - to kill vans with lots of small units and devils, you must catch them first. They are stealthy and they just ninja your provinces (which have a terrible PD btw). Also, vanheim can wreak havoc amongst your jaguar warriors with bladewind and wind guided indie archers. What can your mages do against the van sacreds?
P.S.
To think of it, as Mictlan you have these2xblessed bats, it may be too much for the Van. Not in MA though, when blood magic is banned by Lawgiver.)