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  #1  
Old March 27th, 2007, 08:46 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

Quote:
TirAsleen said:
I ask for a fix and i do not want to play mod what should be fixed in the first place. Why a mod when i just want to see no upkeepf on LE Ryleh spawns? It should be rather offcial too.
You have not really been asking for a fix to a problem here. You have been demanding that a feature of the game be changed to match your personal preferences and play style, which is an altogether different thing.

The developers might not share your point of view. If it is their vision that Late Era R'lyeh should work the way it does now, it is going to stay that way and no amount of requests, wishes, demands and stamping of feet is going to change that.

In which case you have the option of not playing it or modding it to suit your own preferences.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 09:40 AM

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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

I know all that thanks. Why do you need to feel to post so much education lines? I would hear convincing arguments against it or not. If they are implemented is not my choice at all. But i can post my thoughts of course.

They may have not paid as much attention to that particular issue as they have a lot of other work too. So your statements are just assumptions.

So far, i haven't read any convincing arguments against my suggestions.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 10:17 AM

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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

It isn't an assumption to say that if the devs want it working like X they aren't going to change it to Y just because no-one felt like arguing a point with you.

I've only played LA Ryleh once and I found the micromanaging fairly annoying; same deal with LA Ermor. Some people don't find it as annoying. Some people are entirely happy to adjust tax rates themselves, script complex spell combos, work out range and fatigue values exactly, micromanage a super-efficient blood economy etc. I'm not one of those people.

You think this needs to be 'fixed' to the way you'd prefer it. So far no-one else seems that bothered about it. Why would the devs change something to suit one player? They included such user friendly modding to keep people who'd like to make small changes to the game happy.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people suggesting changes. But when you start saying it needs to be 'fixed' because it isn't the way /you/ like it, or the way /you/ would have done things,... you're going to piss people off. Frankly, anyone who flat out refuses to try making a mod to fix this stuff themselves can't really care that much about the issue in the first place.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 10:24 AM

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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

Well, if that people piss offs cause i suggest a fix than its cause they are too sensitive or whatever...

Certainly no reasion to get pissed.

I let this thread die off then if thats so a problem, it was just a thought, i play many different nations i will not make a mod just of this issue with a single nation, can just play something else then. But i think i have a right to suggest things i can see improved, no matter who agrees or not or if it will be implemented or not. It was sharing about game expierence after all.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 10:32 AM

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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

What is causing some friction here is the attitude that it's something that needs a 'fix', as you continue to put it. Suggesting a change isn't the same as requesting a fix.

It seems you can't see the difference, so I'll say no more.
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  #6  
Old March 27th, 2007, 10:44 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

Quote:
TirAsleen said:
I know all that thanks. Why do you need to feel to post so much education lines?
What do you mean by this? Generally I tend to post things that contain useful information or clarification of an issue.

Your previous post on this subject was formulated as a statement of fact that LA R'lyeh needs to be fixed because it has a problem. There is NO consensus that the current way it works is a problem at all. If there's one thing I dislike, it's imprecise arguments.

The things you have posted as problems are problems ONLY for a particular style of play (e.g. maxing out Dominion at beginning and taking bad scales), while other styles (e.g. lower beginning dominion and/or better scales) work adequately or even well.

When you post the issue as if it were an undisputed bug (such as mind hunt crashing the game under certain circumstances or the Wild Hunt fort switcheroo), it goes straight into bug report territory and I've been tasked with managing that. So in such instances I am practically required to comment on it and make the distinction on whether or not tis can directly be considered a bug, or if it is simply a feature request/wish tailored to the particular preferences of a particular player or play style.

Quote:
TirAsleen said:
I would hear convincing arguments against it or not. If they are implemented is not my choice at all. But i can post my thoughts of course.
Nobody is denying you the right to post your opinion. Stating your opinion as fact and expecting it to not get challenged, that's another matter. Someone with a different opinion is free to express their disagreement with you here.

Quote:
TirAsleen said:
They may have not paid as much attention to that particular issue as they have a lot of other work too. So your statements are just assumptions.
My statements rely on a couple of assumptions:

1) That the developers MAY disagree with you. If they do not, then I supopose they will change things as they see fit.

2) That if the developers do not agree with you and do not do anything, the only recourse for change is modding. That is both an assumption AND a fact.

Quote:
TirAsleen said:
So far, i haven't read any convincing arguments against my suggestions.
What do you regard as convincing arguments? If you already have your heart set on one point of view, namely playing LA R'lyeh with high initial dominion and less than optimal scales, there is little that can be said to convince you because those initial parameters will cause the very things you are complaining about.

Playing LA R'lyeh is feasible if (in addition to having a tolerance for micromanagement) you take lower initial dominion and then take scales that are not as extreme high end as Order 3, Growth 3 and you can still do fine.

Specific counter-arguments:

1)Freespawn having no upkeep at all:

This would allow R'lyeh to mass completely ridiculous amounts of troops for no penalty whatsoever. Ashen Empire has the rather great drawback of killing all of its population very quickly, thus reducing income to 0. Hence Ashen Empire freespawns cannot have upkeep.

Dreamlands R'lyeh has no such penalty if you take high growth scale, meaning that you would max out growth and then have an unending supply of troops you could throw into the grinder without any impact on income at all, allowing you to buy hordes of mages, build forts and always have instant, unlimited (but for starvation), free garrisons. Make some supply items and the limits increase.

THAT would be a big problem for everyone BUT the R'lyeh player.


2) Starspawn and illithids being immune to insanity?

Why should they be? They are highly resistant to it, but that does not mean they should be completely immune. I have yet to hear of a good reason why some creature, similar though it is in some respects to Void creatures, should not be affected by something whose mere dreams can alter an entire world. If you want an analogy, hyenas are generally similar to dogs, but they are not actually dogs or even canines, and a hyena would not be accepted into a dog pack. Similarly, a dog would be torn and eaten by a pack of hyenas, it is not immune to their aggression merely by virtue of similarity.

So why should starspawn be immune to the Dreams of R'lyeh? Why is not higher resistance enough?
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Old March 27th, 2007, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

Taking Drain or making Anti-Magic amulets help push your Starspawns over MR 20. Starspawns seem basically immune to insanity over 20.

I like the fact the settings you choose in LA Ryleh make a measurable difference in playstyle and management of the insanity. Taking Death-3 or Magic-3 means your nation will start to fall apart much faster; Growth-3 and you hardly lose population, Drain-3 and your units are much more resistant to your Dominions affects. There are few nations where both sides of the scales are viable choices.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 11:42 AM

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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

Thanks for the info with Starspawns.

But, magic3, death3 with ryleh? You mean it for (very) small maps?

i usually make bags of wine for the chaff and hordes of illithids. I have no problem if the freespawns starve, but i do not want the more costly ilithidic artillery affected. i usually make a ton of them, so battles are decided in a few turns and enemy units do not even come close.
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  #9  
Old March 27th, 2007, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

I honestly think all these problems stem from the fact that there is no way to disband units in the game, which is a huge oversight.

I can't remember having ever played another strategic level game that didn't have a command to disband units when there is an upkeep model in the game. I love strategic warfare games, I've been playing Civilization since it was on DOS, Colonization, Master of Orion 1-2 (3 was awful). All of them have upkeep effects in their games, and all of them allow you to disband units.

I had a vaguely similar problem messing around with Turmoil 3 EA Pangea in SP. The freespawns off the Pans, the beserker chicks, ate me out of house and home! Everyone in my capital province started to starve even with growth 3 and I had to micro manage moving the freespawns in and out of the capital just so that they could starve to death in another province. What a waste!

I think Ryleh's problems with upkeep and freespawn would disappear if you could just disband the useless water based aquatic ones instead of having them destroy your economy.

Jazzepi
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  #10  
Old March 27th, 2007, 02:42 PM
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Default Re: Suggestion: LE Ryleh - Dreamlands

It was Glory of the Gods, i think, not a very small map, though not the largest either.

I'm not saying you should take Magic-3 Death-3, only that these options have both benefits and drawbacks.
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