US Income Tax - Unconstitutional

[Atrocities]

go start your own thread phoenix.

[capnq]

People have been trying the "income tax is unconstitutional" argument ever since it was enacted. Hasn't ever held up in court.

[Atrocities]

it has held up in court when the judges allow the defense motions. however, most judges don't allow these motions because they know that to do so would be opening the flood gates. also all because people loose doesn't make what they are doing wrong, it proves that the system is rigged to keep the lie alive and people in line. watch the film and make your own opinion. don't just blow it off as bs.

[Azselendor]

The people who make these anti-tax documentaries are the same people that support government policies that piss away money. They need to shut their pie hole and pay taxes and maybe vote in favor of small government instead of checking yes on every politician that says he'll bring more money slush funds to his state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_arguments

[Atrocities]

Warning: Wondering Rant To Follow.

The guy who made this anti-tax video didn't make an anti-tax film. He is also not Micheal Moore. Sure this movie is filled with the usual manipulation of facts, but if you sift through the facts, you will find that there is some truth to what is being said. No where in the film does the film maker say "don't pay your taxes" on the contrary, they tell you to pay them.

A little back ground on the topic, paraphrased for ease of reading.

The major bankers of the time, back in 1913, wanted to establish a system that would generate considerable wealth for which they themselves would have sole control of. They named this system the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is where the US Government gets its money. However this isn't free money. The Federal Reserve simply makes the money, figuratively speaking as the US Mint actually makes the money, that the US Government then borrows. Now this money didn't exist before the Federal Reserve made it. It was simply none existent. However now that they have made it and loaned it to the US Government, the Government must pay it back and pay interest on it. That interest is what our national deficit is. To pay down this deficit an income tax was introduced and the IRS was formed to collect it. So in the simplest terms, the bankers of the Federal Reserve make money out of thin air, loan it to the US Government who then taxes you and I to pay it back with interest. The bankers of the Federal Reserve get top value for their money, while you and I get the least value for it. This is how they generate wealth and why the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer. Simply put, if you don't earn interest, you pay interest. All of this is just a system of greed established under false pretenses to enslave a nation of people by tricking them into accepting a system of debt paid for by an income tax. We have been duped into giving our hard earned money away under illegal conditions to a system that was created by the elite wealthy and enforced by our own Government. This by its very nature is one of many known definition of slavery.

[Rant]
My whole point is this, when there is no law compelling you to pay your income tax, only the might and force of the IRS making you, then there is something wrong. We are a nation of laws, a Republic, not a totalitarianism. When force is used to make you do something that there is no law telling you that you must do, than that is contrary to the beliefs and practices of our very way of life. It makes us slaves to the system.

Congress simply needs to reform the entire income tax system. Abolish the power that the few power broking big banks have at the Federal Reserve, re-organize the IRS and pass a real income tax law. They need to be accountable for the money we pay in. Right now most of the income tax we pay goes to pay the interest on the money that the US Government borrows from the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is no more a part of the government than Federal Express is. The Federal Reserve is in fact a cartel of large banks, most of whom no one, including the President, don't even know all the names of. I ask you, since the US Dollar is no longer tied to our nations precious metal reserves, what backs it? Economics of paper money, especially money that is quite literally just printed without any measure to its backing, is a recipe for disaster.

The Federal Reserve, the central bank, is also a key stone of communisms. Our nation worked fine from 1776 to 1913 without the Federal Reserve and income tax. The whole system is flawed and really needs to be overhauled.

Right now as it is, the system only creates wealth for the rich. The middle class is evaporating, and no one is investing in education because the powers behind the system want our children, and by extension the American population, to be stupid. Think about it, knowledge is power and if you have a well educated populous, then the chances are people are going to figure out how the game is being played and manipulated and then they will affect change. If you keep your population dumbed down, in debt, brain washed by cooperate owned entertainment and news organizations, and tied to working three jobs just to survive, they will never question the system and those running it. The American dream, yes that is an accurate statement because you have to be asleep to believe it.

No one wants to affect change because they are complacent with what they have. That nice car, that nice home, the food on the dinner table, and that 36" flat screen TV hanging on the wall keep us all in line. Mean while we shelling out those income tax and interest payments. We have been, all of us, enslaved to a system for which we know not, but love so.

In 2008 the National ID card system will begin. While this sounds like a good idea on paper, in all honesty it will remove much of your amenity and allows any one who so choses to track you. While I doubt I will ever be asked to show my papers in my life time, I do believe that it is entirely possible that the children of today will at some point in their lives, be required to show theirs just to travel from state to state.

While this all seems like some conspiracy theory on caffeine, keep in mind that virtually every one now has a debt card, a credit card, and is in debt up to their eyes. How many of you still carry cash?

Why would congress pass a law reforming the bankruptcy protection laws in order to favor the credit card industry who now charge an average of 26% interest on money you borrow from them? No protection was added for you, in fact it was stripped away in favor of protecting the credit card companies. The very agency, the Controller of the Currency, that is tasked with regulating the credit card industry is funded by the credit card industry. That is a kin to the Mob being protected by the police. The same thing can be said about the IRS. They are the mob, and if you don't pay they will show up and break your legs or worse. And the two political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, well they are like the Gambino's and the Soprano's. Sure once in a while one of them might shoot the other, but when you start messing with their game, they pull together and put a stop to it real quick.

And all of this ties back to the Federal Reserve and income tax. There is no law of record that compels any American citizen to pay income tax. The only reason we do pay it is because if we don't, the IRS will destroy us. The system is designed and protected by fear. You fight it, and you will loose because no one within the system wants to fight the system out of fear that they will be next. Judges included. Even though The Supreme Court has ruled against the IRS and income tax, 99% of the dependents in tax cases are prohibited by the judges in those cases from pointing out the Supreme Court ruling to their juries. Why? Because if people were educated to the fact that there is no law compelling them to pay their income taxes, then they wouldn't and the system would begin to break down. And most fear that chaos would then ensue without considering that whole system is less than a hundred years old and that for over a hundred years our nation ran fine without it.

If they want us to pay income tax then they need to reform the tax code and establish an amendment that actually says we must pay income tax. Currently, according to the Supreme Court, the 16th Amendment does not give the government the right to levy new taxation against the American people. In other words it didn't give our government the right to establish an income tax.

I believe that we all have a responsibility to each other to keep out nation strong. I believe that taxes are a necessary evil even if our founding forefathers felt otherwise. While I don't agree with the current income tax system, a system ripe with corruption, unfairness, greed, and abuse, I know that it is all we have. I also know that any one who has ever tried to bring about reform of this system has paid for it dearly. You might want to know that the Tax code is not a law, that Government does not have the right to seize your personal belongings in order to collect for an illegal tax. Right now as it is, there is no law stating that you are required to pay income tax. The fact that we do pay it, and that we allow the IRS to seize the property of those who don't pay and to throw them into jail is purely out of fear that we will be next. Now I ask you, does that sound like we live in a free society?

And I ask you, if you believe that the people you elect to office are really looking out for your best interests when they themselves were elected through the efforts of a very expensive campaign, who do you believe they owe? The people who elected them, or the people who funded their election? Given your wishes over their money you will loose out each and every damn time. Just look at the bankruptcy reform act for evidence of that. And the beautiful part of it is, people actually believe that the reform was needed. The wonders of believing what they want you to believe never fails to effect change.

When they own the information, they can bend it any way they want.

I guess the question is can we change the system. The answer is no. Baring a nuclear disaster of epic proportions, the system will continue and we will follow where it leads. Like Democracy, we are the lone sheep standing beside the two wolves as they discuss whats for dinner. And the epically sad truth is, we haven't a clue that we are about to be devoured.
[/Rant]

[Kristoffer O]

Why are you complaining? Your taxes are practically nonexistant A couple of pizzas a month.

If Illwinter wants to pay its emplyed workers (me and JK) the company will have to pay approximately 50% taxes on wages (social tariffs or something). When I get paid I have to pay taxes on my income. Income tax is approximately 30%, depending on where you live. So when Illwinter recieves 1000 bucks from Shrapnel, I pay almost 66% of it in taxes.

Then we have 25% VAT on all purchases.

So consider yourselves lucky if you don't like taxes.

I like taxes. When I bang my head into a wall for loosing money I can go to a doctor and pay approximately nothing to get my head fixed. When I afterwards get a remiss to psyciatric clinic it is equally free of costs. Then I get old and get paid for being old.

I like taxes. Perhaps not when I pay them, but I'm quite confident there is not much that would suddenly destroy my life and leave me without support. I can pretty much afford a comfortable life (not from illwinter, but from my work as a teacher).

Atrocities said:
Warning: Wondering Rant To Follow.

The guy who made this anti-tax video didn't make an anti-tax film. He is also not Micheal Moore. Sure this movie is filled with the usual manipulation of facts, but if you sift through the facts, you will find that there is some truth to what is being said. No where in the film does the film maker say "don't pay your taxes" on the contrary, they tell you to pay them.

A little back ground on the topic, paraphrased for ease of reading.

The major bankers of the time, back in 1913, wanted to establish a system that would generate considerable wealth for which they themselves would have sole control of. They named this system the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is where the US Government gets its money. However this isn't free money. The Federal Reserve simply makes the money, figuratively speaking as the US Mint actually makes the money, that the US Government then borrows. Now this money didn't exist before the Federal Reserve made it. It was simply none existent. However now that they have made it and loaned it to the US Government, the Government must pay it back and pay interest on it. That interest is what our national deficit is. To pay down this deficit an income tax was introduced and the IRS was formed to collect it. So in the simplest terms, the bankers of the Federal Reserve make money out of thin air, loan it to the US Government who then taxes you and I to pay it back with interest. The bankers of the Federal Reserve get top value for their money, while you and I get the least value for it. This is how they generate wealth and why the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer. Simply put, if you don't earn interest, you pay interest. All of this is just a system of greed established under false pretenses to enslave a nation of people by tricking them into accepting a system of debt paid for by an income tax. We have been duped into giving our hard earned money away under illegal conditions to a system that was created by the elite wealthy and enforced by our own Government. This by its very nature is one of many known definition of slavery.

As you say, banks makes money up from nothing, by loaning. This makes it possible for me to use money instead of a barter system. I much prefer money, real or imagined, to collecting food and medical services from the parents of my students.

Since the banks have made the money it is reasonable to expect them to want to earn some money from their service. If I collected sea shells for the village to use as money I would like to gat paid. It would be a greedy scheme by me, but it would enable the villagers to trade without having to barter and they would probably like my sea shells. Some more than others.

[Rant]
My whole point is this, when there is no law compelling you to pay your income tax, only the might and force of the IRS making you, then there is something wrong. We are a nation of laws, a Republic, not a totalitarianism. When force is used to make you do something that there is no law telling you that you must do, than that is contrary to the beliefs and practices of our very way of life. It makes us slaves to the system.

Congress simply needs to reform the entire income tax system. Abolish the power that the few power broking big banks have at the Federal Reserve, re-organize the IRS and pass a real income tax law. They need to be accountable for the money we pay in. Right now most of the income tax we pay goes to pay the interest on the money that the US Government borrows from the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is no more a part of the government than Federal Express is. The Federal Reserve is in fact a cartel of large banks, most of whom no one, including the President, don't even know all the names of. I ask you, since the US Dollar is no longer tied to our nations precious metal reserves, what backs it? Economics of paper money, especially money that is quite literally just printed without any measure to its backing, is a recipe for disaster.

Faith and psychology backs it. And if you don't want to pay taxes the faith in the dollar will decrease. A recipe for disaster

The Federal Reserve, the central bank, is also a key stone of communisms. Our nation worked fine from 1776 to 1913 without the Federal Reserve and income tax. The whole system is flawed and really needs to be overhauled.

Are key stones of communism reasons to overhaul the tax system?

Sweden has been socialistic for about one hundred years, but the swedish society is more and more letting go of socialistic traits, and the current government is a right-wing alliance (though probably leftist by american standards ).

Communism evolved from socialism and share several ideological traits. As a good swede I like many of the socialistic traits of our society.

I don't feel particulary enslaved, even though I live in a country that probably qualifies as built on communist key stones. The swedish central bank has sucessfully kept the inflation at 2% since the reform of 1994. It is no longer under the direct control of the government and is working surprisingly well.

Right now as it is, the system only creates wealth for the rich. The middle class is evaporating, and no one is investing in education because the powers behind the system want our children, and by extension the American population, to be stupid. Think about it, knowledge is power and if you have a well educated populous, then the chances are people are going to figure out how the game is being played and manipulated and then they will affect change. If you keep your population dumbed down, in debt, brain washed by cooperate owned entertainment and news organizations, and tied to working three jobs just to survive, they will never question the system and those running it. The American dream, yes that is an accurate statement because you have to be asleep to believe it.

No one wants to affect change because they are complacent with what they have. That nice car, that nice home, the food on the dinner table, and that 36" flat screen TV hanging on the wall keep us all in line. Mean while we shelling out those income tax and interest payments. We have been, all of us, enslaved to a system for which we know not, but love so.

Is it bad to be enslaved by something you love?

But you are right. It is better to know what you do and what you get. THat is why it is important to educate yourself, and that is why I find my job important (teacher in social sciences).

In 2008 the National ID card system will begin. While this sounds like a good idea on paper, in all honesty it will remove much of your amenity and allows any one who so choses to track you. While I doubt I will ever be asked to show my papers in my life time, I do believe that it is entirely possible that the children of today will at some point in their lives, be required to show theirs just to travel from state to state.

While this all seems like some conspiracy theory on caffeine, keep in mind that virtually every one now has a debt card, a credit card, and is in debt up to their eyes. How many of you still carry cash?

Why would congress pass a law reforming the bankruptcy protection laws in order to favor the credit card industry who now charge an average of 26% interest on money you borrow from them? No protection was added for you, in fact it was stripped away in favor of protecting the credit card companies. The very agency, the Controller of the Currency, that is tasked with regulating the credit card industry is funded by the credit card industry. That is a kin to the Mob being protected by the police. The same thing can be said about the IRS. They are the mob, and if you don't pay they will show up and break your legs or worse. And the two political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, well they are like the Gambino's and the Soprano's. Sure once in a while one of them might shoot the other, but when you start messing with their game, they pull together and put a stop to it real quick.

And all of this ties back to the Federal Reserve and income tax. There is no law of record that compels any American citizen to pay income tax. The only reason we do pay it is because if we don't, the IRS will destroy us. The system is designed and protected by fear. You fight it, and you will loose because no one within the system wants to fight the system out of fear that they will be next. Judges included. Even though The Supreme Court has ruled against the IRS and income tax, 99% of the dependents in tax cases are prohibited by the judges in those cases from pointing out the Supreme Court ruling to their juries. Why? Because if people were educated to the fact that there is no law compelling them to pay their income taxes, then they wouldn't and the system would begin to break down. And most fear that chaos would then ensue without considering that whole system is less than a hundred years old and that for over a hundred years our nation ran fine without it.

If they want us to pay income tax then they need to reform the tax code and establish an amendment that actually says we must pay income tax. Currently, according to the Supreme Court, the 16th Amendment does not give the government the right to levy new taxation against the American people. In other words it didn't give our government the right to establish an income tax.

I believe that we all have a responsibility to each other to keep out nation strong. I believe that taxes are a necessary evil even if our founding forefathers felt otherwise. While I don't agree with the current income tax system, a system ripe with corruption, unfairness, greed, and abuse, I know that it is all we have. I also know that any one who has ever tried to bring about reform of this system has paid for it dearly. You might want to know that the Tax code is not a law, that Government does not have the right to seize your personal belongings in order to collect for an illegal tax. Right now as it is, there is no law stating that you are required to pay income tax. The fact that we do pay it, and that we allow the IRS to seize the property of those who don't pay and to throw them into jail is purely out of fear that we will be next. Now I ask you, does that sound like we live in a free society?

And I ask you, if you believe that the people you elect to office are really looking out for your best interests when they themselves were elected through the efforts of a very expensive campaign, who do you believe they owe? The people who elected them, or the people who funded their election? Given your wishes over their money you will loose out each and every damn time. Just look at the bankruptcy reform act for evidence of that. And the beautiful part of it is, people actually believe that the reform was needed. The wonders of believing what they want you to believe never fails to effect change.

When they own the information, they can bend it any way they want.

I guess the question is can we change the system. The answer is no. Baring a nuclear disaster of epic proportions, the system will continue and we will follow where it leads. Like Democracy, we are the lone sheep standing beside the two wolves as they discuss whats for dinner. And the epically sad truth is, we haven't a clue that we are about to be devoured.
[/Rant]

> the system will continue and we will follow where it leads.

Of course you will not! The system will continue and you will change it. It will evolve and others will make money out of it for a while, then it will change again, and the earlier powers will loose power. Some will at times feel as sheep, but the less of you that get an education the less of you will be sheepish

Just get rid of all that home-schooling and your country will prosper

[Atrocities]

Everything changes sooner or later. I wonder if what replaces it will be better or worse?

[capnq]

Kristoffer O said:

Faith and psychology backs it. And if you don't want to pay taxes the faith in the dollar will decrease. A recipe for disaster

Within the past year, I've read an article by a German economist who basically said that unfounded faith in the US dollar is the only reason that the US dollar hasn't totally collapsed, and the main reason international bankers still invest in US dollars is that no one wants to take the financial loss that would come from being the first to admit how weak the US dollar really is.

But you are right. It is better to know what you do and what you get. THat is why it is important to educate yourself, and that is why I find my job important (teacher in social sciences). [...] Just get rid of all that home-schooling and your country will prosper

IMO, home schooling is one of the only things that offers hope for change. Like everything else, it's subject to Sturgeon's Law, but that other 10% is the main source of independent thinkers who haven't been brainwashed into supporting the status quo.

[capnq]

Atrocities said: watch the film and make your own opinion. don't just blow it off as bs.

A rant for a rant.

Unlike you, Atrocities, I do not surf the Web actively searching out stuff that will just depress me. I do not need to watch the film to form an opinion, because there isn't a word of it that I haven't heard before. Nothing yet mentioned in this thread is news to me. I'm not blowing it off because it's BS, I'm blowing it off because it's just more of the same.

Anyone who's worried about the national ID doesn't realize how much data is already out there. We are the most documented and dossiered culture in world history; one more number in the databases isn't going to change anything at this point.

Since I've already cut half of what I've typed, I'm going to quit now before I really cut loose and get in trouble with the moderators.

[Atrocities]

I am very happy for you in that you are happily putting that psychology degree to good work by psychoanalyzing me and asserting your opinion about my web surfing habits. Your check is in the mail.

I get that you don't care about the topic because you have heard it all before but please don't attack me because I posted the information. You never know, perhaps someone might come along who hasn't read this before and might find it an interesting topic.