Air Cobras

[thatguy96]

I figure I won't bother starting a new thread for this, but I decided I'd go and update the entire US Army AH-1 history for one of my OOB packs and noticed the following.

Unit 118 AH-1G Cobra - End date of 12/72. AH-1Gs were only finally converted completely into AH-1S starting in 1976. Suggest making them available until 12/76.

Unit 119 AH-1S Cobra - Cobra with M197 cannon and rockets only. AH-1S 1st and 2nd production run had the same Minigun/40mm AGL combo as AH-1G/AH-1Q, but with TOW capability. Up-gunned AH-1S/AH-1E had no rocket capability.

Also, start date is 1/73, but is equipped with hydra rockets and M197 cannon. Cannon only appears on Army AH-1S 9/78, Hydra 70 system not common until 1981. Should either have later start date (and revised name) or should have earlier start date and Minigun/40mm AGL combo and 2.75" FFAR (weapon 177)

Unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1Q. However, should have same EW as AH-1S (EW 6)

Unit 121 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1F. However, TOW-2A not produced until 1987. Should either have TOW or ITOW at this date.

Sources:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avcobra_2.html

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/aahist2.htm

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-71.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/d...n-rockets.html


Also, there's no AH-1G in the USMC OOB. USMC recieved AH-1G diverted from the US Army 2/69, pending arrival of the AH-1J.

[Dimitry]

thatguy96 said:
Unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1Q. However, should have same EW as AH-1S (EW 6)

Unit 121 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1F. However, TOW-2A not produced until 1987. Should either have TOW or ITOW at this date.

I must say it's very informative.
But why do you think that unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW should have EW 6 ?
If you look at me previous post, you will find a link, proving that AH-1S Cobra had infrared jammer equipment, equal to the in-game EW of 3


Here's the information about AH-1F
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/ah-1f.htm

....."The Cobra can also disperse chaff and infrared jamming flares using the M130 general purpose dispenser "....
The same infrared jammer equipment.

[thatguy96]

Dimitry said:

I must say it's very informative.
But why do you think that unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW should have EW 6 ?
If you look at me previous post, you will find a link, proving that AH-1S Cobra had infrared jammer equipment, equal to the in-game EW of 3


Here's the information about AH-1F
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/ah-1f.htm

....."The Cobra can also disperse chaff and infrared jamming flares using the M130 general purpose dispenser "....
The same infrared jammer equipment.

I wasn't getting into the debate over the EW as right or wrong. In terms of what exists, the AH-1Q and AH-1S had the same defensive systems, so in game they should be equal. As it stands now the AH-1S has EW of 6, what is effectively the AH-1Q had EW 7. the AH-1Q should be equal to the AH-1S in the EW category.

[Dimitry]

AH-1H? Firstly, I'm not sure what model you're talking about because there was no AH-1H. A quick look at the sources I have available has garnered a picture of an AH-1 with the AN/ALQ-144 in 1984. The delivery date of the first units, which were purposely purchased for the AH-1 series, is stated to be 1981.

Yes, the talk was about AH-1F. I apologize for the misprint.
As for the AN/ALQ-144 - as far as I know this is the very infrared jammer. So this is still in-game EW of 3. Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

[Mobhack]

Dimitry said:
Yes, the talk was about AH-1F. I apologize for the misprint.
As for the AN/ALQ-144 - as far as I know this is the very infrared jammer. So this is still in-game EW of 3. Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

An EW value of 3 is an EW value of 3. That is one that is one more than 2, and one less than 4. It is nothing to do with a specific type of electronic warfare system. It cannot be - as the game has no concept of infrared, radar, laser optical or whatever in terms of AAA warfare.

The only specific usage of specific EW values are when they are used as magic numbers for non-ew purposes for non AAA units. There, 1-2 is VIRSS and 3-4 is anti-ATGM CIWS.

So "EW" is just a magic number, more being better. And the USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones.


Cheers
Andy

[Dimitry]

2 Andy

An EW value of 3 is an EW value of 3. That is one that is one more than 2, and one less than 4. It is nothing to do with a specific type of electronic warfare system. It cannot be - as the game has no concept of infrared, radar, laser optical or whatever in terms of AAA warfare.

Well, I can be mistaken but the principles of IR jammers (chaffs, flares, some decoys etc.) for land and air units are mostly the same.
So here's the Mobhack's Help quotation:
".....A value of 1 in this case is 1 shot of Arena active anti ATGM countermeasures, 2 is 2. 3 is 1 shot of Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke (VIRSS) which ejects anti TI smoke, possibly linked to an IR Jammer as well...."
I repeat, I can be mistaken, but it seems to be right way for aircraft/helicopter IR jammer's estimation in EW points.
And BTW - Could you clarify for me the criteria of in-game EW estimation? What is it based on?

And the USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones.

Is it assumptions, or you have documentary proof?



2 thatguy96

Thanks for info, but Internet links would be better.
As for me, I have books on the subject too - but as you can see I use only internet sources. So anyone can check them.

[thatguy96]

Dimitry said:
2 thatguy96

Thanks for info, but Internet links would be better.
As for me, I have books on the subject too - but as you can see I use only internet sources. So anyone can check them.

Anyone can check them, but they're rarely right. I prefer to stick to published print resources for fact checking, especially of internet sources.

[Mobhack]

Well, I can be mistaken but the principles of IR jammers (chaffs, flares, some decoys etc.) for land and air units are mostly the same.
So here's the Mobhack's Help quotation:
".....A value of 1 in this case is 1 shot of Arena active anti ATGM countermeasures, 2 is 2. 3 is 1 shot of Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke (VIRSS) which ejects anti TI smoke, possibly linked to an IR Jammer as well...."
I repeat, I can be mistaken, but it seems to be right way for aircraft/helicopter IR jammer's estimation in EW points.
And BTW - Could you clarify for me the criteria of in-game EW estimation? What is it based on?

I know what the Mobhack help states, since I wrote the help for my editor. So - please read the complete paragraph from the help file, with the the important bit being highlighted in bold:

EW - Electronic Warfare value. Mainly used for AA vs aircraft capability. For non flak on map units which are vehicles, the field is used for special countermeasures devices. A value of 1 in this case is 1 shot of Arena active anti ATGM countermeasures, 2 is 2. 3 is 1 shot of Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke (VIRSS) which ejects anti TI smoke, possibly linked to an IR Jammer as well. 4 is 2 VIRSS shots. This field changes colour and displays a note when VIRSS or Arena are valid.

So as I said in the post you replied to, an EW number is simply a number where a 1 is better than a 2, in the case where the EW is being used for its normal usage. That is as a defensive AAA value (on planes) or as an offensive item (flak or AAA). Not as a special usage for land units anti-ATGM (or artillery observer fire control which is another dual use of the EW field).

Try looking at an MBT with a 3 or 4 in the EW field in Mobhack - the field is highlighted in blue text and a text string for VIRSS is displayed. A helicopter or a SAM or a plane does not have any such highlighting since it is not a special case usage of the EW field for non-AAA use.

Cheers
Andy

[thatguy96]

Dimitry said:
Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

Imformation from:

Gervasi, Tom. Arsenal of Democracy III: America’s War Machine. New York, NY: Grove Press, 1984

Mutza, Wayne. Walk Around: AH-1 Cobra. Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications, 2002