Quad AA.

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[chuckfourth]

Well hi again
Nice post, but I do have a couple of further comments.
For the quad/vierling comparison 15 seconds seems to be a long time to be firing at a fighter bomber, travelling at say 300 mph or so, it probabaly isnt in range for more than a few seconds? In any case as both weapons are no doubt firing a single long burst then they are both on their cyclic rate of fire and as these are similar then both weapons are putting the same number of rounds into the air? except of course -if- the engagement is long enough then the vierling will be slowed down by having to change mags but maybe this would only take a couple of seconds? one would certainly hope so anyway.
Yes Im sure you can change the 50 cal barrel and hope for the best. But do you know if spare barrels were actually carried for the quad? or for the 50 cal when mounted on the HMG tripod? or for a 50 cal mounted on a tank turret? I suspect the weapon doesnt come with spare barrels in any of its incarnations which is why we have the low ROF training as detailed for the ground target support fire. Obviously if no spare barrel is available then it might be best to adhere to the recommended practical ROF 84 rpm or 40 rpm?
Im not sure what you mean by advancing the ROF? do you mean you can increase the cyclic ROF or just fire longer bursts?
I doubt that the heavy barrel was equivelent to a water cooled or quickchange design or everyone would have opted for the heavy barrel design. once hot a barrel takes a lot of time to dissapate that kind of heat. The BAR has exactly the same problem.
If the Low ROF is put in place to stay on target you wouldnt need to wait 10-15 seconds between bursts one second would be sufficient. How much ammo you expend is determined by the situation and controlled by the NCO in change of the gun, not by the manual. Also if the barrel is prone to overheating then long pauses between bursts is exactly, and the only, way to keep the 50 cal barrel cool. which seems to be a bit to big of a coincidence to me.
For the purposes of the game it doesnt matter that James survived, (apologies James we are all glad you survived) what matters was that he was incapacitated, Many people point out the extra punch but it is overkill, only a very very few people can collect a 7.62 bullet and jump up and continue fighting. For incapacitation 7.62 is every bit as good as 12.7 both will put the man down. For this reason I think 7.62 and 12.7 should have the same kill value vis a ve infntry targets. On TV recently a veteran of Omaha beach recalled a burst from a mg42 cutting a man clean in half.
Both MG 151 and hispano have a ROf of 750.
two quotes from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun
"The added mass and surface area of the new (heavy) barrel compensated, -somewhat-, for the loss of water-cooling, while reducing bulk and weight (the M2 weighed 121 lbs, with water, whereas the M2 HB weighs 84 lbs). This new variant was the designated the M2 HB (HB for Heavy Barrel). Due to the long procedure for changing the barrel, an improved system was developed called QCB"
(QCB is post WWII)
"The M2 machine gun's -sustained- rate of fire is considered to be anything less than 40 rounds per minute"
Best Regards Chuck.

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[chuckfourth]

Howdy

Actually I dont think its touchy I just think that as it doesnt have quick change barrel or water cooling then there is a very real possibility that the barrel can become overheated making the gun useless. To avoid this the gun comes with the recomended ROF of 40 rpm
Now ignoring the AA stuff for a moment and lets look at the tripod ground mount. lets compare it to the .30 cal both have the same cyclic ROF 550. The 30 cal has accurracy of 20 kill of 5 while the 50 cal has 23 11.
Now the 30 cal has a sustained or practical ROF of 150 rpm and the 50 cal has a sustained or practical ROF of 40
So after a few turns when the honeymoon is over the 50 cal barrel has warmed up and now has to run at the recomended 40 rpm. The .30 cal however can continue to fire at 150 rpm for the entire game so its firing nearly 4 times as many bullets as the 50 cal. Now if accurracy and kill values incorporate ROF then I think the 50 cals values are two high. Untill someone tell us how accurracy and kill values are worked out though I cant be sure.

Now my argument depends on 50 cal barrels not being swapped out. And that is true because no spare barrels are issued.

I doubt very much if much heat from the barrel gets into the receiver(gun) only a very small proportion of the barrel in in contact with the gun maybe 1 percent? and the barrel is going to lose heat to the air quicker than to a lump of metal anyway.
pouring water on the barrel would seem to be a good way to warp the barrel and again I dont think this would be particularily effective as the steam is going to block your sight give away your position and all the water on the deck might annoy the loaders.
You have a point regarding cover I hadnt thought of that. might be worth 1 point of Kill I guess.
if your infantry carriers are bradleys then we are in the wrong game, I would put good money on no spare barrels being carried during ww2 they may be by now as the current version of the gun does now have a quick change barrel.
I see the higher RPM is just the higher end of the cyclic ROF, fair enough. We have already established that for a burst of 20 or less rounds both AA quads put up the same number of rounds.
For the hispano vs mg-151 750 ROF is for the individual weapons.
I think the gunner will track the target and keep the trigger pressed irrespective of what the loaders are doing. so I think AA weapons are comparable in this. If the BAR gunner has to change the mag himself he has a problem.
Best Regards Chuck

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[chuckfourth]

Hi BaggyPants
I know they didnt have spare barrels because if they did then they would have been used and this would have given the 50 cal the same practical ROF as the 30 cal which it hasnt(40 vs 150 rpm). (not forgetting both have the same cyclic ROF) the 50 cals low practical ROF is proof they didnt swap out the barrel.

But the Low ROF didnt matter, because on the ground tripod mount it wasnt used as the coy sustained fire MG this was the 30 cals job. It used as a heavy punching automatic cannon.
On a tank turret it was simply decoration, there were no planes to shoot at and the british ditched them as impractical. It makes a passable AA quad mount as the engagement time is low but when the 50 quad is shooting at ground targets, the 20 mm outclasses it because of its higher practical ROF.
Best Chuck