Dud nations

PvK · #1 April 21st, 2007, 08:54 PM

I think EA Ulm is strong. Shield Maidens are fast to recruit and can defeat most opponents without getting hurt. Their archers are also good. They can rush and defeat many opponents early without even needing magic, or just expand very quickly.

I've just spent the morning trying MA Agartha, and I think they're strong too. Their human troops are like a variant of MA Ulm, which can be quite strong when used well, and are good for steady expansion. Also they have armored amphibians, who can expand quickly against underwater independents. Then magic summons and not so bad mages, national summons, Golem Cult bonus... they seem pretty good to me.

MA Ulm is one of my favorites, but I agree they seem a bit weak, especially with competition like MA Agartha. I don't agree that the armor advantage is negated by the encumbrance, or that their morale is a problem - the counter to that is using a large enough army, at which point it survives, gains experience, and becomes a tough meat grinder when used correctly. I agree that I wish they had an MR bonus rather than a penalty, though they've always been that way, and they do now have a national spell to make up for that point. The knights can be used as thugs if you do it carefully and have the stomach for it. HP aren't everything. But in general ya, Ulm is in trouble because of all the easy-access powerful magic in Dominions, as it always has been. I would say though that they are the weakest of the three you mentioned. But I still really enjoy playing them, especially in SP.

HoneyBadger · #2 April 21st, 2007, 09:19 PM

I think EA R'lyeh (Aboleths) is difficult if you're inexperienced with them-and even if you are, but I certainly wouldn't call them a "dud-nation". Yes, they could use some help, but they're not wreaked, just challenging.

Shovah32 · #3 April 21st, 2007, 09:20 PM

EA Rlyeh and oceania arent great. MA Mictlan isnt bad but is weak compared to its EA and LA counterparts.

HoneyBadger · #4 April 21st, 2007, 09:36 PM

EA R'lyeh needs better troops-most of the troops they get are lousy and unnecessary. The only ones worth anything that aren't Aboleths are the Shambler Thralls, and they aren't great.

If they got slave trolls-even as a national summon-and "rogue" mindlords *do* get them when you find Aboleths in neutral provinces, they'd be much, much better.

It wouldn't hurt if there were some kind of a sacred version of the Aboleth/Mind-Lord, too, since there are young sacred Aboleths.

I'd also really like to see some better Province Defense for these guys, too-because they're a particularly slow nation, and need it.

The biggest problem with Aboleths is that the only good units they get are Mind-Lords. They're great units, admittedly, but they can't be a nation by themselves.

Salamander8 · #5 April 21st, 2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

HoneyBadger said:
EA R'lyeh needs better troops-most of the troops they get are lousy and unnecessary. The only ones worth anything that aren't Aboleths are the Shambler Thralls, and they aren't great.

If they got slave trolls-even as a national summon-and "rogue" mindlords *do* get them when you find Aboleths in neutral provinces, they'd be much, much better.

It wouldn't hurt if there were some kind of a sacred version of the Aboleth/Mind-Lord, too, since there are young sacred Aboleths.

I'd also really like to see some better Province Defense for these guys, too-because they're a particularly slow nation, and need it.

The biggest problem with Aboleths is that the only good units they get are Mind-Lords. They're great units, admittedly, but they can't be a nation by themselves.

All very good points.

The PD only worked for me when backed up by mobile forces or for piecemeal attacks. The morale of the non-lobotimised slave troops is nominally 8 and being that most of the PD are such slave troops that doesn't help. MA R'Leyh's PD at least gets the Lobo Guards which don't rout.

The Shambler Thralls I had posted about earlier. I like them overrall and only needing 1 resource and having 50 morale is great, but they get eaten alive by arrow fire, and they are mindless so accrue no xp. Once I had empowered more of my Mind Lords with air and summoned an Air Queen I had Arrow Fend up quite often to help with this.

Mind Lords are really nice except for the lack of magic item slots problem. I had a ton of amulets of the fish made up for these guys. I'd hate to try EA R'Lyeh without having access to air magic though. I had started my Polypal Queen with heavy magic, including some air and through an event acquired an indy mage with air that I empowered a bit to help with item creation too.

There are several ways to bring air breathers down below the waves, but barring the self-only amulet of the fish, there is no way to bring the water breathers out. That severely cuts the effectiveness of the Gibodais and Giboleths.

I don't feel that EA R'Lyeh is a straight-up dud, but they were much more difficult to win with than the other nations I have won Dom3 with so far (MA R'Lyeh, LA Argartha, EA Lanka, EA Yomi).

Sombre · #6 April 21st, 2007, 10:26 PM

Hmm. A good topic. I'm more interested in knowing which units and summons people think are duds, so I might make a new thread.

SelfishGene · #7 April 21st, 2007, 11:43 PM

No dud love for MA Mictlan?

I'm neither very fond of LA Ctis either.

EA Oceania and EA Ryleh make up for their weak amphib capacity by being much stronger underwater than EA Atlantis, and they should dominate the waves.

I would hesitate to call LA Arco a dud, but they do lose quite a lot of power and gain only a little variety in their troops. I like them in SP but i wonder if they're not rather weak in Multi.

As i've said before, Marverni is a very very weak nation as well that has all but one unit (the Druid) that you must base your whole strategy around. Their basic troops are worse than indie Barbarians. Good luck surviving without an Awake pretender.

I actually think EA Arco might be rather weak in all honestly, although i can see players doing well with them. If you play them thematically (3 magic/3 sloth), and make best use of philosophers, your still sort of stuck "rolling" for good randoms on your Mystics. Depending upon what randoms you get your game could be very strong or very weak.

HoneyBadger · #8 April 21st, 2007, 11:50 PM

I wouldn't by any means call EA Oceania weak. They have the single *best* sacred troop in the whole game, and Triton Kings with 4 water right off the bat.

Run well, they should be the Helheim of the ocean.

If they were amphibious, they'd be the best nation in the game, in my opinion.

R'lyeh Aboleths is easily the weakest of the bunch.

EA Atlantis could really use more national summons-especially weird, squishy/flappy ones, to go along with that whole Lovecraft jones-overall, though, I'd say they're the most balanced water nation.

Evilhomer · #9 April 22nd, 2007, 06:30 AM

yes EA r'lyeh and EA oceania can kill atlantis, but that doesn't mean that it makes up for their complete lack of good amphibious units. Basically as someone said before you are forced to stick with indies and some summons when you go ashore, and thats not viable in a MP game. No nation are wrecked, and even the water nations can win a mp game. However they are good contestants for the weakest nation in EA, unless the water section of an mp game is huge.