Dud nations

[mivayan]

Sombre said:
I still don't 100% understand that. Is the most damage a repel can do 1 damage then? I mean if A attacks, D launches his repel attack and hits, then A fails his morale check, is that 1 damage max, or is it a standard hit from the weapon?

It doesn't make sense that he would take less damage purely because of his morale, so I'm guessing repel either does 1 damage and stops their attack, 1 damage and doesn't stop them, or fails completely.

If that's the case, increasing the damage dealt by long weapons wouldn't aid repel, but adding to attack would. One problem with the system seems to be that repelling a 0 length weapon is equally as easy with a 1 length weapon as a 6 length weapon,... and 1 length weapons are more likely to have an attack bonus.

If D's repel roll is successfull, and A fails his morale roll, A's attack is canceled but he takes no damage.

If D's repel roll and A's morale roll are successfull, A takes 0 or 1 damage and does his attack as planned. The 0 damage happen when D's damage roll doesn't get through A's protection. So a str10 pikeman might sometimes stop a knight from attacking, but rarely hurt him with the repel.

I suspect that A's shield protection is included if D's attack roll earlier didn't bypass the shield... but hard to know.

I like the ideas of giving ulm methods to hurt sacreds or magic beings. Are they good *weapon* forgers too? A new any-castle unit with magic weapons might be fun. Or even elf bane/moon blade (vs magic beings), or herald lance/flambeau (vs demons and undead). Or smasher(anti-lifeless), Star of heroes(armor destruction).... yeah... a 30-gold unit with these and a shield!

[PvK]

Strong EA nations in my experience:
Helheim, Vanheim, Niefelheim, Mictlan, Ulm, Agartha, Arco, Oceania, Caelum, Sauromatia, C'tis, Ermor

Yomi looks strong to me in SP but I haven't played as them in MP.

Other EA nations I don't have enough experience with to have a strong opinion about their overall strength.

[HoneyBadger]

I think Yomi could stand more national spells and summons-specifically some different kinds of Dai Oni types, maybe a high level Oni version of the Demon Lords with 3 different unique types. It'd be fun and welcome to see Dai Onis with different abilities, graphics, and starting equipment, even if they were all more or less equal in power. It would just add a bit to the interest and flavor of the nation.

I don't think I'd quite call them a "dud-nation", but they are a bit lame after playing them for a while, not because they're not interesting, but because I don't think enough has been done with them-I think a lot more could be done in terms of flavor and diversity of units and spells.

They really lend themselves, thematically, to national spells and summons, in my opinion, and there's so many interesting effects for demonic Asian magic to have.

[Shovah32]

I also think yomi could do with a bit more variety, although they are fairly strong but quite boring(there arent a large number of ways to play them).

[HoneyBadger]

That's what I'm saying. They aren't underpowered, they're just not flavored to the full capacity of the theme.

[Sir_Dr_D]

What is the reason that marverni is concidered so weak.

There druids are great mages. Astral, earth and nature seems like a great combination of magic. (eagle eyes + gifts from heaven for example) And the Ambinite warriors have good stats for their cost.

[DrPraetorious]

Yeah, Druids can be quite useful, but they take more research points to get going than do other casters, and they make *no research boosting items whatsoever*. So you probably don't survive to reach the mid-game, which other people achieve before you do.

Their military is just mildly inferior, but the mages are their real problem. They take too long to get off the ground - the other human nations have a better military, AND they have earlier access to useful combat magic.

The Eponi Knight is decent - but he doesn't have a *lance*, which is a real problem, and you can't fight another player with a military made entirely of medium cav.

The rest of their military is only slightly inferior to equivalently priced Ermorian legionaires. They might look better on paper (they have a higher strength, and broad swords instead of short swords) but they don't have javelins and they don't have tower shields. This is a big problem for early expansion.

That said, I don't think Marverni *needs* a stonger military. If their Druids were more useful around turn 5 they'd be able to hold on - and later in the game, earth/astral/water/nature is a devastating tetrad.

I have a marverni fix mod with just extra national spells that I think does the trick well enough, but I'm hoping for some extra functionality in the next patch.

[vfb]

Here are some problems I've had with Marverni:

Ambibate Nobles are good warriors. However, they are not sacred, so if you build a ton of them, they will eat up a lot of maintenance. A combo I tried with Ambibate Nobles was to get Legions of Steel. That worked nicely. Except that once you get Legions of Steel, your casters will spam it on every unit you've got, even if it's a single Horn Blower sitting behind the ranks. Ambibate Nobles are expensive in terms of resources too. No way can you take any sloth.

The old age on Druids is a bit of a pain. Since Marverni has no blood/fire, it's difficult to stop them from aging. And they are expensive.

Researchers are weak/expensive. Really you've got to take at least Magic 1 to keep up in the research game. Since you have no Air/Death/Fire, you can't build ANY research items unless you get lucky with an indy.

You have no bows. Sure you can mass slingers or javelins, but then you are even more screwed with upkeep.

You have no national summons. (Devs, how about sending at least some Cu Sith love Marveni's way?)

Nature: It's quick to get a Gutater to N3 but you need Const 6 or empowerment to get him to N4 so you can make Ivy Kings.
A Lamia Queen would be much better but you've got no Death. Even if you could make 1 Lamia Queen with a Pretender, it can't make its own Lamia Queens. Firbolgs are great thugs, especially if you have a druid casting healing light.

Earth: Troll Kings are kind of cool. But you have to summon the whole court, and that's expensive.

Astral: Golems are cool. But they're way up in Const 7. Sorry, no Ether Lords, because you guessed it, no Death. Perhaps an Astal/Death pretender to let you conjure Ether Lords might be a good plan, since Marverni does have a nice Astral base to start. Ether Lords could then make more Ether Lords. But at 90 pearls a pop, I think you'd run out pretty soon.

You have no killer rituals. I suppose Baleful Star is not bad, way over in Alt 5. But Air gets Hurricane in Evo 4 (Evo 4 is killer of course), Blood gets Toads in Blood 3 (duh), and Death gets Burden in Thau 5. Fire gets Raging Hearts at Thau 5 too. If Marveni had Death, it would be cool to cast Blight, but, hey, no Death. Melancholia is a good spell -- for someone to cast on Marverni.

Anyway, I still play Marverni, even in MP, because I like the theme. I'd lose in any case because of my vast noobishness .

Marverni also does just fine in SP, since it's a lot easier to put up another castle and pump out a bunch of stargazers to support your druids, and you probably don't have to worry about getting rushed on turn 9.