Dud units / monsters / summons

[Edi]

Yes. You're confusing weapon inherent penalties with ambidexterity penalties.

Ambidex bonus affects penalty due to weapon length, meaning adex 2 would negate the weapon length penalty for axes (length 1), so the double axe warrior would have only -1 penalty to attack courtesy of the inherent penalty of the axe. If they used double maces, there would be no penalty at all. The sword/axe warrior would have a length penalty of 3-2=1 and would get another 1 poinyt penalty for the axe, so his attack with axe would be at -2 to basic attack and the word attack with -1 to basic attack (with the second attack being effectively 2 points higher due to the def penalty for the first one).

Increasing ambidex bonus is more effective if the weapons being used are long and if there are no inherent attack penalties for the weapon. I'd actually prefer a +2/+1 att/adex bonus, that would have an impact that still would not be too overpowering.

[MaxWilson]

I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the sword/axe guys had some kind of preference for 1 raw + 1 ambi instead of 2 raw, which I couldn't figure out because they yield exactly the same numbers. (It's a flat +2 bonus relative to the existing Ulmish warriors.) Since I agree with all the numbers in your post, you must not have been saying that.

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword)
Att 11, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 8/9 (effectively 8/11).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +2 bonus)
Att 13, Ambi 1. Length penalty = 2, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

Mountain Warrior (Axe + Sword, hypothetical raw +1, +1 ambi)
Att 12, Ambi 2. Length penalty = 1, so 10/11 (effectively 10/13).

I think we agree on this--extra ambi is the same as attack bonus unless your weapons are so short that your length penalty is already zero, which for Ulm it's not. Yes?

-Max

[Edi]

Hrmm, it could be. I need to check up on the ambidexterity mechanics when I get back home, but it certainly looks that way. My mistake.

I think the +1/+1 is a more elegant solution since it does not result in visible attack values that look overinflated compared to other base units in the game. I suppose it's a matter of preference. In any case, the Ulmish units should NOT get more than +1 to ambidexterity (for a total adex of 2) or it will piss on all sort of other thematics (such as assassins having good ambidexterity etc).

[Sombre]

I'd give 'em +1+1 att/ambi for a total of 12 attack, 2 ambi, or possibly just +1 ambi since in CBM the women have been nerfed a bit (or so I hear).

Actually this is my current thinking for a balance addition to CBM:

Att 2 on blowpipe.

Bakemono to size 1.
Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.
Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.
Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.
Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.
Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.
Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.
EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.
EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.
LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.

Obviously I want this list to be longer. Any more units you'd never use?

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Att 2 on blowpipe.

Already done in CB.

Bakemono to size 1.

I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.

Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.

Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.

Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.

I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.

Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.

I suppose, not harming anything though.

Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.

IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.

Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.

I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.

Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.

For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.

EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.

An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.

EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.

The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.

LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.

Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

[Sombre]

Already done in CB.

Not in v1.00 it isn't. There's a mistake in the code - the weapon is typed in as #prec 2 when it needs to be #att 2. Since I'm proposing a mod on top of the CBM mod, I thought I'd fix that little typo.

I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.

I'll check, but I think they'll look fine. They're the same size as the vaetti after all (graphically). Maybe even the same as a hoburg.

Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.

Might have to make them slightly more expensive, but it just seems daft that the can't fight worth a damn currently.

I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.

End result is the same, so I don't mind.

I suppose, not harming anything though.

Just a tidying thing. They have zero need of the scout.

IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.

I completely agree, but not for the initiate level units. Their description suggests they are young(ish). The nation as a whole would still have oldage problems and I'd only make it so the initiates at least didn't /start/ old. 2-3 years down the line, who knows?

I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.

I agree, but in the meantime I think waterstrike could be lower. As someone on the forums said, water mages should be useful underwater out of the box. I suppose I could come up with a couple more attack spells underwater which are weaker and at lower levels. I still think water strike is high up considering how specialised and relatively underwhelming it is.

For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.

Makes sense from balance, theme and fun perspective to me.

An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.

Depends on the cost of the slave troll. If the shambler thrall is currently a bad choice it could be given a boost or made a bit more unique, too.

The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.

Well there's always magic or some elemental resistance. That would play on the fact that they have armour crafted by specialised mages from traditionally magical matter.

Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

I do think we agree on most areas, and I don't see any reason why the balance of SP and MP need conflict. This thread has actually turned out a lot better than I expected as far as bringing up useful balance discussions. CB is built on input, there hasn't been a lot of it for Dom3 yet, but that's largely because people have still been exploring the base game.

[Methel]

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

They're flaggelants, they hurt themselves for religious purification/proof of faith/penance/whatever. Seems logic that a good bit of them cant fight as well as unhurt soldiers.