Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Saxon]

Over the weekend, I played a SP game as EA Vanheim, as it seemed the easiest way to make sure I did not have to face them in the end game, yet again. Tried out the water/fire bless and was astounded. They are, quite simply, hugely powerful. I know I am repeating my earlier arguments in the thread, but having played them, it is stunning. I had fun and enjoyed the mages with E3 and a shot at E4 on a random. Throw on some boots of earth and that earth booster spell and you have an E5 or E6 mage. Blade Wind forever! I did not touch the blood magic and stopped research altogether once I realized the power of Blade Wind forever. I did not even bother attacking other nations protection, but that would have boosted the effect even more. No need to buff troops, even though those spells are available in the Earth school. I have not explored this nation much, but if it has the hidden gems like most other races, there is more strength in it yet.

The only problem I ever faced was a batch of blessed flaggelents! I had no archers, and this was before Blade Wind, so I lost some of my troops killing them hand to hand. I had considered recruiting indy archers on the therory that they would be very safe behind my powerful infantry, but couldn't be bothered, there was no need!

Sure, this was single player and sure, Blade Wind is not as valuable in MP (though I would be interested to see a team of E mages casting destruction and blade wind), but this nation is damn strong. Too damn strong.

[Velusion]

Saxon said:...but this nation is damn strong. Too damn strong.

With the exception of a vocal minority, you are pretty much preaching to the choir.

[Sombre]

I just read through this entire thread.

I have to say my opinions of a couple of posters changed a bit. I won't say any more on that matter.

Just for the record I'm totally sold on the argument that Vans are overpowered, singleplayer or multiplayer wise. I also think the CB mod does a good job of toning this down resulting in a more enjoyable game.

[HoneyBadger]

I've come to the conclusion that they are somewhat unbalanced. I don't think I agree that they're untouchable supermen, but definitely more than fairly endowed.

Rather than nerf them though, I'd really like to see the weakest nations in the game boosted-and the more powerful nations diversified-until we get a more even playing field, without taking away from the appeal of playing Helheim/Vanheim.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with Vanheim/Helheim being very strong-they work as very strong nations, or we wouldn't be complaining. I just think the problem is with some other nations needing help.

There are definitely nations that make mince out of Vanheim/Helheim-Niefelheim does, for instance, and Tien Chi. That's because those nations are strong too, and because they have specific talents to combat Van/Hel. The problem isn't that Van/Hel is unbeatable unless you weigh the odds, though, it's because there aren't enough other nations that can stand toe-to-toe to them, where you might win, but you might not. Niefelheim beats them, Tien Chi beats them, other nations beat them, but what gives them a run for their money?

Van and Hel are tough to beat because they're put together well, and because they can exploit the weakness of others while protecting themselves against being exploited right back.
You don't have a chance against them playing some nations, unless your opponent is a 12 year old moron-and that's because they can pick weak nations apart-that's the problem, not that they're, by themselves, too strong.

So why wreak a couple of perfectly good, interesting nations just because they work too well? just fix the ones that are broken-and in the process, make me more good, interesting units and spells to play with.

[Sombre]

I don't think people want to start discussing this whole thing over again HB. If you read through the thread I think the point you make is addressed - when it comes to balance it's easier and it makes more sense to tone down the very overpowered stuff of 1 or 2 nations than go about improving the other 15 or so.