Dud units / monsters / summons

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
Att 2 on blowpipe.

Already done in CB.

Bakemono to size 1.

I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.

Sea Trolls more useful: Claw with 0 0 0 stats rather than fist.

Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.

Ambidexterity increase of 1 for ulmish warriors. Possibly +1 attack too.

I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.

Remove scout from marignon - they have spy etc.

I suppose, not harming anything though.

Abysia's old age problems - remove oldage from 'initiate level' units.

IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.

Lower water strike research level so it is useful for water mages underwater early on.

I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.

Agarthan MA PD above 20 produces pale ones that are supposed to be rare and suck as PD. This is no good.

For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.

EA Rlyeh could do with the Slave Troll unit. As national summon or recruitable.

An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.

EA Oceania amber guard need to either be better or have lower rcost.

The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.

LA Marignon Flagellents without afflictions.

Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

[Sombre]

Already done in CB.

Not in v1.00 it isn't. There's a mistake in the code - the weapon is typed in as #prec 2 when it needs to be #att 2. Since I'm proposing a mod on top of the CBM mod, I thought I'd fix that little typo.

I think the graphics would look screwy if that were done.

I'll check, but I think they'll look fine. They're the same size as the vaetti after all (graphically). Maybe even the same as a hoburg.

Seems reasonable, I think something similar was done in dom2 CB actually.

Might have to make them slightly more expensive, but it just seems daft that the can't fight worth a damn currently.

I'd rather up the attack than the abidex, seems somehow more thematic.

End result is the same, so I don't mind.

I suppose, not harming anything though.

Just a tidying thing. They have zero need of the scout.

IW's stance, which I tend to agree with, is that the old age is part of the theme and other ways should be found to boost them if needed.

I completely agree, but not for the initiate level units. Their description suggests they are young(ish). The nation as a whole would still have oldage problems and I'd only make it so the initiates at least didn't /start/ old. 2-3 years down the line, who knows?

I actually use water strike quite a bit as it is, just because it's more or less the only option. The real issue here is not enough direct underwater combat spells. In theory new ones should be able to be modded in.

I agree, but in the meantime I think waterstrike could be lower. As someone on the forums said, water mages should be useful underwater out of the box. I suppose I could come up with a couple more attack spells underwater which are weaker and at lower levels. I still think water strike is high up considering how specialised and relatively underwhelming it is.

For most nations, I'd rather not tweak something as invisible as PD, but MA agartha needs all the help it can get.

Makes sense from balance, theme and fun perspective to me.

An interesting idea, though it would make the shambler thrall an even poorer choice.

Depends on the cost of the slave troll. If the shambler thrall is currently a bad choice it could be given a boost or made a bit more unique, too.

The problem here isn't that they are too bad, but that oceanian tritons are so much better. I have hard time seeing a thematic solution.

Well there's always magic or some elemental resistance. That would play on the fact that they have armour crafted by specialised mages from traditionally magical matter.

Even if I thought flagellants were underpowered, I would rather make them cheaper than remove such a unique feature. And I don't find them weak at all, they beat sacreds like Red Guard hands down (not on an individual basis obviously).

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
If you agree with me on the whole regarding some things, I'd be happy to just work with you and others at improving the CB mod. The problem is I come at the game from a SP and theme angle, not MP. I still want to improve balance, of course. I'm a CB convert, or I wouldn't be wanting to build on it, see? I just think more can be done without harming the game or watering it down any, by sorting out the many other duds in the game not touched by CB (yet?).

I do think we agree on most areas, and I don't see any reason why the balance of SP and MP need conflict. This thread has actually turned out a lot better than I expected as far as bringing up useful balance discussions. CB is built on input, there hasn't been a lot of it for Dom3 yet, but that's largely because people have still been exploring the base game.

[Sombre]

Cool. If CB is still a work in progress then I'm happy to stick with that and work on CBM versions of mod nations.

I just noticed I managed to seriously mess up the quoting up there. I'll fix that.

By the way I tested the little Bakemono at size 1 and they look just as good in battle if not better. I really think they should be size 1.

[Methel]

Well I'm willing to go with the flow regarding flaggies. People here seem to think they're useful and I'm no expert, so I'm not going to argue that one any further. If the description explained about their afflictions I suppose that would make it less bothersome.

They're flaggelants, they hurt themselves for religious purification/proof of faith/penance/whatever. Seems logic that a good bit of them cant fight as well as unhurt soldiers.

[Sombre]

I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

[vfb]

Sombre said:
I don't think they were into lopping their own arms and legs off, but ok I can see the reasoning.

They got infected and were forced to amputate .

[Gandalf Parker]

Some people will only be happy with a strategy game that involves perfectly matched pieces that are a different color. Like playing Chess. Nothing wrong with such games. They are the true test of strategy-vs-strategy. They also tend to want chess-board maps with nothing random which might cause a game to be won by luck. This is an extreme group and can be supported by maps and mods. (hmmm mods that create a dozen duplicates of Ulm so the Ulmers can play against other Ulmers. One mod for each nation...)

Of course there is also the other extreme. Those who prefer random and chaos. The game is to best handle the things thrown at you. Also supportable by maps and mods (one day I will update Leif's Dom2 mod that changes one randomly chosen stat on every unit in the game so that you have to rethink your strategy each time you play with it. And recreate my chaotic randomized maps). Yes Im in the chaotic group.

OF course, MOST players are someplace in between and seem to be having a great time with the game. I will continue to suggest chaos and random in the beta-test group. And we have our representatives in this thread who will continue to post there in the name of balance and equalizing.
And the poor devs will continue to watch us go back and forth.

Gandalf Parker

[Sombre]

What's chaotic about units so bad they'll always punish you for using them?

I'm not into uber-balance. I don't even play MP. I like variety and if certain units are just bad that cuts down the variety, even in SP. It also weakens the AI, since it can't tell a good buy from a bad one.

[Jazzepi]

Even some people who play chess think every side having the same exact start is dull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960

Jazzepi