Arcane Nexus

[Baalz]

Well, granted I haven't played a huge number of MP games, but I've yet to see it cast by someone who wasn't already very likely going to win anyway. I agree it's a critical bug that you get gems the first turn, but if it were changed so that there was a chance to dispel it before it payed out it then its fine. If you can keep it up despite the fact that you've basically declared war on everybody else in the game you deserve to win.

[Ygorl]

I'm in the "it's okay" camp, I think. It's obviously incredibly powerful, but if you can maintain it for a long time against the rest of the world's combined gem income (and remember, it costs 150 to cast and 30 to dispel) either you've got them way out-powered or they're not very smart, and in either case you're probably going to win. Or, they've got better things to spend their gems on, in which case maybe you won't win...

[Velusion]

Ygorl said:
...or they're not very smart...

You're confusing self-interest with common interest. Often players who are already getting beat up or who don't stand a chance at winning won't bother to help out. Why should they care? So in reality only a very select few nations who have a shot at winning care. Their combined pearl income is often less than the pearl income of the AN caster.

I dunno, seems like in the games I've lasted until the end AN always is the clincher that seals it. I'm just tired of participating in AN-dispel pacts that never seem to work. It just gets old and lame after awhile.

Id rather the game be decided by a climatic battle(s) then just see everyone's hands go up in the air and leave once the first dispel for AN fails. Feels cheesy.

[Archonsod]

Velusion said:
You're confusing self-interest with common interest. Often players who are already getting beat up or who don't stand a chance at winning won't bother to help out. Why should they care? So in reality only a very select few nations who have a shot at winning care. Their combined pearl income is often less than the pearl income of the AN caster.

Sounds like you have a problem with the players rather than the spell.

Id rather the game be decided by a climatic battle(s) then just see everyone's hands go up in the air and leave once the first dispel for AN fails. Feels cheesy.

Why bother with the dispel then? Presumably, if those nations interested really do have a chance at winning then it would represent a serious military bloc. A combined war pact would be a better idea, until either the casting player was defeated or the spell was removed. Unless the power balance is way out of whack, then even the power of AN won't be sufficient against such an alliance.
Should be easier to sell to the other players too. Presumably those in with a chance of winning will be fairly close in power (at least in their own heads). You can appeal to their sense of competition - point out that the lands thus captured may be the edge they need to become dominant. Just make sure the only one who's going to be in that position when the dust settles is yourself

[Velusion]

Archonsod said:
Sounds like you have a problem with the players rather than the spell.

I'm not sure I understand this comment. Are you refuting my observations that players do generally act like that... or telling me I need to play with more egalitarian players?

Archonsod said:
A combined war pact would be a better idea, until either the casting player was defeated or the spell was removed. Unless the power balance is way out of whack, then even the power of AN won't be sufficient against such an alliance.

That seems to be the default for when AN is cast. But I have to disagree with your assumption - the power of the AN is usually enough to fight off everyone combined. Remember it's usually only cast by players fully aware that everyone will attack them... so only someone in the top three will usually even try it and they will be ready. And by this time he might only have one or two fronts to worry about - a player across the map can't reach him easily.

[Ironhawk]

I fully agree with Velusion. "Game Ender" spells ruin the fun of a game. You can argue till the end of time about whether it should be able to be dispelled or what the proper cost is. Really none of it matters though because being in the "Dispel this or lose the game" position is always massively un-fun and disappointing. Why would anyone want to play a game when faced with a situation like that?

[Velusion]

Ironhawk said:
I fully agree with Velusion. "Game Ender" spells ruin the fun of a game. You can argue till the end of time about whether it should be able to be dispelled or what the proper cost is. Really none of it matters though because being in the "Dispel this or lose the game" position is always massively un-fun and disappointing. Why would anyone want to play a game when faced with a situation like that?

Thanks Ironhawk.

I guess I'll say my final piece about AN:

1. It is much, much more powerful than most other 9th level spells (hence unbalanced).
2. It scales badly depending on game size.
3. Because it is so powerful it can overshadow everything else often resulting in unfun conclusions to games.

[Archonsod]

Velusion said:
I'm not sure I understand this comment. Are you refuting my observations that players do generally act like that... or telling me I need to play with more egalitarian players?

Bit of both :

The problem is what you're offering to the player. Dispelling AN at that point means little to those who are basically trying to hang on. Offering them provinces on the other hand might allow them back into the game.
It also plays into your own hands, since ideally the provinces of the caster will end up in multiple player's hands. The last thing you want is to replace one superpower with another...

so only someone in the top three will usually even try it and they will be ready.

If there's such a large gap between the top three players then the caster has pretty much already won, AN is simply speeding up the endgame.

And by this time he might only have one or two fronts to worry about - a player across the map can't reach him easily.

There's ways around it should it come to that. They don't necessarily need to attack over the border either - summoning spells which attack provinces and the like are equally useful, despite feeding AN. The idea is to pressure the caster on all fronts to prevent them forming a concentrated defence rather than to seriously damage him. Ideally, you just want them to distract him enough to make your own conquest easier (thus placing you in the game winning position )

[Meglobob]

Velusion:-

There is a really easy solution, do what you did in perpetuality, if you don't like Arcane Nexus ban it from the games you host. If players know when they start a game, no problem. Same should have been done with Helheim when it was overpowered, hosts should have simply banned it from MP.

This is much better then nerfing the spell or nation or whatever for everyone. The majority of Dominions players only play SP anyway, so its very unfair to nerf, remove parts of the game for them.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
Well, granted I haven't played a huge number of MP games, but I've yet to see it cast by someone who wasn't already very likely going to win anyway. I agree it's a critical bug that you get gems the first turn, but if it were changed so that there was a chance to dispel it before it payed out it then its fine. If you can keep it up despite the fact that you've basically declared war on everybody else in the game you deserve to win.

True the fix would help, but I don't think it would stop AN from still being the "Game Ender" for lots of games. I do agree the leader usually casts it - but I'd rather at least give the second and third place players a shot at beating the leader rather than just have them give up because hope is lost....