German ranks

[Arralen]

Sorry if this question does not belong here, too, but ...

Palle said:
The fact that you can buy SS units is cool.

How come?

Those units which where in front-line use wheren't that much different than ordinary heer units. And those which wheren't .. dunno what's so "cool" about them or SS in general ... ????

[PatG]

Arralen said:
Sorry if this question does not belong here, too, but ...

How come?

Those units which where in front-line use wheren't that much different than ordinary heer units. And those which wheren't .. dunno what's so "cool" about them or SS in general ... ????

It's a difficult question. Very generally, in wargaming the losing side tends to be more popular than the winning side: WWII Germans vs Allies, Confederate States vs Federal, Napoleon vs Wellington. I would suggest that this is due to most players, and I include myself, thinking "If I was in command, things would have been different..."

A second reason is "marketing". The National Socialists were not stupid. The SS was sold as an elite praetorian force, with special uniforms, special equipment and a direct link back to the "glorious past" of the teutonic knights. Whether or not you agree with the politics, the black SS uniform is pretty impressive looking. You can see some of the same factors in play in ads for the Marines, the French Foreign Legion and other "elite" formations. In SPWW2 the Marines get a whole OOB to themselves...

A third reason is the Cold War. Until recently, most western militaries were focussed on defeating the Russian Hordes. As the Germans generally and the SS specifically were the first modern western troops to go up against the Russians, it is easy for we westerners to identify with them. Only recently has WWII been portrayed as anything other than an American affair with some support from the rest of the allies*. In particular the overwhelming Russian contribution to the defeat of Germany is just starting to be acknowledged.

Finally there is politics. In general, most wargamers are right of centre politically. It is easy to look at what the facist regimes accomplished while avoiding looking at the failings. This appears too in the West's infatuation with ancient Rome.

Do I think the SS are cool? I have to admit with some guilt that yes I do. However, I am not naive enough to forget the racist brutality that underpins their "Cool" image. Then again, I prefer to play the Japanese - they are guilt free right?

PatG

*This seems to be primarily a Hollywood problem. In no way do I mean to ignore the huge contributions the US made in men and material.

[PanzerBob]

Well put, Pat, I don't think I would have laid it out as well, however, you hit the nail on the head.

BZ, PanzerBob

[chuckfourth]

Hi
I found some interesting stuff on the SS in this book, "World War II" by Orbis publishing.
As we are all aware the origional task of the SS was to administer state terror as directed by Hitler. This was done through the concentration camps. The SS was a stand alone and very powerful organisation in itself, as testified to by the fact that when manpower ran out in Germany and the camp inmates were put to work in the economy, the SS insisted that the inmates had to be worked to death, rather than the idustrialists prefered option of keeping them alive.

The Waffen "field" SS or "fighting" SS brought some of this terror with them especially the TotenKopf, 1st and 2nd SS divisions which were composed from concentration camp gaurds and the Polizei Division formed from the SS police force. All men no doubt used to brutality. Das Reich and Viking divisions were largely recruited from German volunteers. There were also SS divisions composed of volunteers from scandinavia and Holland etc. Men from the foreign volunteer units could end up with the death sentence as traitors if captured. Their status remained "undefined" throughout the war. A cynic would say that the various SS atrocities served the purpose of making the SS fight all that much harder as they could expect a similarily brutal end if captured. And the SS does seem to be famous for fighting with fanatical tenacity.
Why do I mention this?
Maybe it would be reasonable to remove the SS units dice roll for surendering and assume they are "fighting to the death"?
The Japs are another story they believed that there emporer was divine and that they couldnt lose the war. And they werent keen on surrendering either! One example is Tarawa, of 4500 japanese a total of 17 soldiers and 129 Korean labourers were captured/surrendered. For many years after the war ended an occasional japanese soldier would turn up in the southern pacific still dutifully manning his station.
Again I would suggest that the Japs arent subject to a dice roll for surrender.
A lot of people would say that WW2 was really fought and won by Russia on the eastern front. Russia had something like 20000000 men killed.
Best regards Chuck

[narwan]

Unfortunately that's not exactly true about the origins of the SS, although many of the more basic books do mention it like that. It's simpler than the truth and serves to give a SS an even more sinister reputation.

But the original role for the SS was the protection of Hitler, especially during the putsch of Munich in 1923. The name SS (Schutz Staffel) does translate into 'body guards' and that was exactly what they were meant to be, much like modern day bodyguards protecting 'important' people.
While the SA was declared illegal after said putsch, the SS was very small and overlooked by the authorities which gave it time to grow, but not much. When soon after the SA was reformed, the infighting between SS and SA resulted in the effective end of the SA as a player.

In the years after two separate parts emerged, the SS-VT (VerfugungsTruppe) and SS-TV(TotenkopfVerbande). The VT were the 'fighting' arm, which included the Leibstandarte regiment (later 1st SS division) and the Das Reich (which was initally called the SS-VT division and became the 2nd SS division) for example. These continued the original role of the SS in guarding it's leaders and is the part which became the 'Waffen-SS' early in the war. Initial recruitment standards for the VT were higher than for the TV.

The TV units were responsible for guarding concentration camps and other police duties (in occupied areas). There was some interchange of personel between TV and VT but not much. Some of these TV units were later 'merged' to form the Totenkopf division. By the time of Barbarossa the TV and VT distinction had effectively ceased to exist.
If I remember correctly the concentration camp duties were taken over by the Allgemeine SS, with waffen-ss men serving short periods as guards, usually after recovering from wounds, after leave or awaiting permanent assignment to a (new) field unit.

So the 1st and 2nd SS division were NOT formed from concentration camp guards but the 3rd ss division was (although only about half the troops came from guarding the camps). Some soldiers from the 1st, 2nd and other divisions did serve short terms as guards but that was later in the war, after their formation as divisional units.

The SS Polizei division was never really part of the SS. It was formed from police units in late 39 and meant to serve in occupied areas as a 'militarised' police force. As the SS was claiming the right to police the occupied area's the division was later given SS status. The bulk of it's men were not members of the SS however and they did not wear SS insigna but police badges and signs. The were NOT formed from any SS police force but from the regular police.

Finally, the Wiking division was initially formed from foreign recruits (dutch and danish especially) with a cadre of experienced german soldiers. So not not by german volunteers.

Narwan

[narwan]

On the SS surrendering, don't forget that while the SS initially recruited only volunteers and even then only the best of those, not only did these standards drop during the war, at a certain point it became common that draftees were enlisted in the SS. Many of the waffen-ss units did not have the great fighting reputation that the big well-known formations had. Even so, when the 2nd SS Das Reich went to Normandy in '44 it was in southern france reconstituting. Many of the new recruits that had to be fitted in were not just draftees, they were draftees from Elzas and Lorraine! After the fall of france germany had claimed these as part of the german homeland. So it wasn't considered occupied but part of germany proper. So it's inhabitants were drafted too. Ddin't matter that the vast majority considered themselves to be french (even though they spoke a german dialect). In fact, many draftees from these regions were deliberately put into SS units as they would be less likely to desert (they were supposed to go to the eastern front and the common attitude of the russians towards anyone in an SS uniform was rather harsh...).

So when the 2nd SS, a reputable formation, went to action in Normandy, they had a load of 'french' draftees that didn't want to be there and who were barely incorporated into the parent units. The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Dont forget Alsace-Lorrane was part of germany 1871 to 1914. The area has over history been part of France, part of Germany and independant.

The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine

Id be interested in the source for this and what quite high is as a percentage.
Best Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

The SS was a murky organisation at all times with many different levels and suborganisations. All the above don't even go into the different levels and taks of the Allgemeine SS. But still, the ORIGINAL task for the SS was VIP protection.

A good example for the confusion is the VT units. Some of these were merged into a SS-VT division which has caused some historians to refer to these exclusively as VT troops while others include all the SS 'combat' troops (including the Leibstandarte). This latter seems to be the correct use as for example service in the VT became equivalent for fulfilling the militairy service with the armed forces as early as 1936, long before the formation of the division.

The nuances of the VT aren't terribly relevant though while that between the VT and TV is. They had different recruitment criteria, training and organisation. TV service didn't count for militairy service either as the army considered this a 'police' organisation.

There were in fact 5 TV verbände (each about battallion strength) in october 1939 when the Theodor Eicke, Inspector general for the concentration camps gained permission to organise an SS field division too (note that he was in charge of the TV part, NOT the VT part of the SS and it seems he wanted his own little army too). These verbände were No1 Oberbayern, No2 Elbe, No3 Sachsen, No4 Ostfriesland and No5 Brandenburg, based at Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Frankenberg, Buchenwald and Mauthausen respectively. About 6500 out of a total of 7400 TV troops were assigned to the division (so over 80% of all TV troops which can hardly qualify as the 'best' of the TV). Experienced officers from the VT were transfered in and the combat experienced former TV standarte Götze added (that had started out as a unit meant to conduct 'police' operations in the danzig area on the heels of the german armed forces but it had ended up in the front lines itself fighting the polish armed forces).
Still service in the division was not considered militairy service (until the first half of 1940) and they held on to the lower recruitment standards compared to the VT units.

The SS standarten Nordland (Danes and Norwegians, not Swedes) and Westland were in fact only battallions when they were merged with the Germanina regiment from the VT division to form a second VT division (which did become the Wiking division) but the did become regiment sized later on.

I have no idea what to make of this:
"5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed."

What year are these referring too?

And as to the high percentage of desertions, I'd have to dig up some specific numbers, but from my head these were high for normal german standards, not to mention the normal figures for SS units.

Sources for the origins of the SS divisions is Bruce Quarries 'Hitler Teutonic Knights' and for the Das Reich in frnace 44 is Max Hastings 'Das Reich; the march of the 2nd ss panzer division through france, june 1944'.

[narwan]

In some families int the Elzas and Lorraine one generation fought with the french army in 1870-71, the next with the germans in 1914, the next to that with the french in 1940 and then their sons again with the germans in 1944!

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
On the Geneology of the SS my source gives this.
SS 'Leibstandarte' (hitlers body gaurd).
SS Verfugungstruppen (SS-VT) formed, each unit raised to battalion strength, "exclusively at the disposal of the Fuhrer for special tasks during peace and war" these were the 'aryan' crew.
By 1939 we have 3 SS-VT regiments 'Deutschland', 'Germania' and 'Der Fuhrer'.
Paralell with the SS-VT were the Totenkopffverbande, in 1937 they constituted 3 regiments, 'Oberbayern', 'Brandenburg', 'Thuringen', 'Ostmark' added after Austria was annexed.
After the Polish campaign the 3 SS-VT regiments were reformed into the Verfugungdivision. Leibstandarte becomes a fully motorised infantry regiment. Totenkopf division raised from the best of the Totenkopffverbande
SS Polizei Division raised. you are correct from "normal" police.
SS regiment Nordland formed from Danish and Swedish volunteers.
SS regiment Westland recruited from Holland and Belgium.
These two regiments were merged with the Germania SS-VT becoming the 'Germania' Division and then 'Wiking' division.
Verfugungdivision renamed 'Das Reich' Division.
5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed.

True the SS were origionally Hitlers Body guard but it soon grew way past this role. Dont forget the SS owned and ran the camps and the inmates and because of the shortage of manpower these inmates became a precious industrial resource. The SS charged a fee for their use and through this became very rich. Because the SS insisted the inmates had to be worked to death there was now an economic imperitive to collect more inmates guilty or not. Pretty sinister Organisation no?