German ranks

[narwan]

On the SS surrendering, don't forget that while the SS initially recruited only volunteers and even then only the best of those, not only did these standards drop during the war, at a certain point it became common that draftees were enlisted in the SS. Many of the waffen-ss units did not have the great fighting reputation that the big well-known formations had. Even so, when the 2nd SS Das Reich went to Normandy in '44 it was in southern france reconstituting. Many of the new recruits that had to be fitted in were not just draftees, they were draftees from Elzas and Lorraine! After the fall of france germany had claimed these as part of the german homeland. So it wasn't considered occupied but part of germany proper. So it's inhabitants were drafted too. Ddin't matter that the vast majority considered themselves to be french (even though they spoke a german dialect). In fact, many draftees from these regions were deliberately put into SS units as they would be less likely to desert (they were supposed to go to the eastern front and the common attitude of the russians towards anyone in an SS uniform was rather harsh...).

So when the 2nd SS, a reputable formation, went to action in Normandy, they had a load of 'french' draftees that didn't want to be there and who were barely incorporated into the parent units. The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Dont forget Alsace-Lorrane was part of germany 1871 to 1914. The area has over history been part of France, part of Germany and independant.

The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine

Id be interested in the source for this and what quite high is as a percentage.
Best Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

The SS was a murky organisation at all times with many different levels and suborganisations. All the above don't even go into the different levels and taks of the Allgemeine SS. But still, the ORIGINAL task for the SS was VIP protection.

A good example for the confusion is the VT units. Some of these were merged into a SS-VT division which has caused some historians to refer to these exclusively as VT troops while others include all the SS 'combat' troops (including the Leibstandarte). This latter seems to be the correct use as for example service in the VT became equivalent for fulfilling the militairy service with the armed forces as early as 1936, long before the formation of the division.

The nuances of the VT aren't terribly relevant though while that between the VT and TV is. They had different recruitment criteria, training and organisation. TV service didn't count for militairy service either as the army considered this a 'police' organisation.

There were in fact 5 TV verbände (each about battallion strength) in october 1939 when the Theodor Eicke, Inspector general for the concentration camps gained permission to organise an SS field division too (note that he was in charge of the TV part, NOT the VT part of the SS and it seems he wanted his own little army too). These verbände were No1 Oberbayern, No2 Elbe, No3 Sachsen, No4 Ostfriesland and No5 Brandenburg, based at Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Frankenberg, Buchenwald and Mauthausen respectively. About 6500 out of a total of 7400 TV troops were assigned to the division (so over 80% of all TV troops which can hardly qualify as the 'best' of the TV). Experienced officers from the VT were transfered in and the combat experienced former TV standarte Götze added (that had started out as a unit meant to conduct 'police' operations in the danzig area on the heels of the german armed forces but it had ended up in the front lines itself fighting the polish armed forces).
Still service in the division was not considered militairy service (until the first half of 1940) and they held on to the lower recruitment standards compared to the VT units.

The SS standarten Nordland (Danes and Norwegians, not Swedes) and Westland were in fact only battallions when they were merged with the Germanina regiment from the VT division to form a second VT division (which did become the Wiking division) but the did become regiment sized later on.

I have no idea what to make of this:
"5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed."

What year are these referring too?

And as to the high percentage of desertions, I'd have to dig up some specific numbers, but from my head these were high for normal german standards, not to mention the normal figures for SS units.

Sources for the origins of the SS divisions is Bruce Quarries 'Hitler Teutonic Knights' and for the Das Reich in frnace 44 is Max Hastings 'Das Reich; the march of the 2nd ss panzer division through france, june 1944'.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
"What year are these referring too"
Well it seems to be 1939. So these units maybe appear in the invasion of France. I had assumed that these units had gone on to form 1st and 2nd SS divisions, maybe they were included in these divisions later, I dont know. They seem to be what happened to the 20% of TV that didnt get into the Totenkopf division but at 2 brigades and 2 regiments 20% seems a little low. The two SS cavalry regiments were formed from "independent cavalry units, cycle units, and horse artillery elements".
Best Regards Chuck

[narwan]

In some families int the Elzas and Lorraine one generation fought with the french army in 1870-71, the next with the germans in 1914, the next to that with the french in 1940 and then their sons again with the germans in 1944!

[narwan]

Here's a list of all formed Waffen SS 'divisions':


1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
4.SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division"
5.SS-Panzer-Division - "Wiking" (also "Germania")
6.SS-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Nord"
7.SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Prinz Eugen"
8.SS-Kavallerie-Division - "Florian Geyer"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
11.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Nordland"
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar"
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien"
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland"
16.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Reichsführer-SS"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"
18.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division "Horst Wessel"
19.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.2) - "Latvia"
20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) - "Estland"
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg"
22.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Maria Theresa" (ungarische)
23.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division (niederländische Nr.1) - "Nederland"
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
24.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS - "Karstjäger"
25.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.1) - "Hunyadi"
26.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.2) - "Hungaria" (also "Gömbös")
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck"
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische)
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr.1) - "Italien"
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.1) (also "R.O.N.A.")
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.2)
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weißruthenische Nr.1) - "Weißruthenien"
31.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Batschka" (also "Kukuruz", "Lombard")
32.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "30.Januar"
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne"
33.Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.3)
34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Landstorm Nederland" (niederländische Nr.2)
35.SS-Polizei-Grenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division II"
36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS - "Dirlewanger"
37.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Lützow"
38.SS-Grenadier-Division - "Nibelungen" (also "Junkerschule")

SS-Grenadier-Division - "Neu Turkistan"
SS-Panzer-Division - "Tannenberg"
Kampfgruppe-Division - "Böhmen-Mähren"


I think there are enough units in there of dubious quality so as not to have a 'no surrender' rule for SS units.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Well if all these were full sized divisions the Germans may have held the russians for an extra year and ended up being nuked.
For instance.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" This Division was little more than a brigade
It was formed in the last 2 months of the war and made up form the remains of 33rd Waffen Cavalry Division wich had been destroyed at Budepest. The French element was one regiment and one Brigade
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck" This division again brigade size.
These below seem to be pretty typical of the poorly performing "SS" Divisions.
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar" Formed 1943 Mutineed during training brutalised yugoslavian civilians was disbanded and reformed as a mountain regiment.
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg" and
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
Both had such high desertion rates they were disbanded.
But then we have,
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien" Wiped out in the Brody-Tarnov pocket.
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland" fought to the death in Berlin.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" fought to the death in Berlin
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische) Wiped out on the Order 1945

So yes there were SS 'divisions' that were a "joke" but these seem to be way under strength, didnt last long and didnt do much. Most of these paper divisions seemed to have been used in police actions and had little if any opportunities to surrender in any case. The Nazis organised a SS division for every country they occupied to pretend that Europe was united in a crusade against Bolshevism" and these are usually the substandard units you refer to. They are more for propaganda purposes than fighting.
From a second source that plagurises the first.
"Perhaps the most crucial of these fire brigade battles was the containment of the British and Canadians at Cean in June July 1944 where the seven Waffen SS divisions fought themselves to virtual destruction."
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

For game purposes I think that most players are thinking they are buying men form units such as these when they buy SS not from one of the small shortlived substandard units.
So maybe "no surrender"?
Looking at the diversity of the SS maybe there is a opportunity here to give it its own OOB like the Marines?
Best Regards Chuck.

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

Totenkopf division was not in France during the Normandy campaign, it was in the east.

As for the 17. SS PzGren Div, I've studied it some for a possible German Normandy campaign - but I shelved it. Nobody would want to play the 17. SS in Normandy - it was not particulary well equipped and it was reduced in combat pretty much the same as any other German formation in that campaign.

[narwan]

Well Chuck, I think you're forgetting two things here. First that most SS divisions raised in the war started out as smaller formations, usually either legions, regiments or brigades before being upgraded to division status. The second is that the accepted size of divisional formations dropped significantly during the war. All of the divisions in the list I give were at some point or other actually formed as a divisional formation (taking into account the difference of the size of divisions at different periods of the war).
If you want to add all the formations that didn't reach divisional status or divisions that were planned but never really formed the list would be much longer.
Also the lesser quality unit usually weren't short lived either. The prinz Eugen division for example was raised as early as march 42 and fought till may 45 but its troops weren't exactly the best around.

Your examples of what happened to some of these formations illustrates my point perfectly. The quality of SS formations ranged from units fighting to the death to units that were disbanded after some time due to high desertion rates (and in a few cases even acts of mutiny). Most were in between these extremes for most of their existence. In other words, a general 'no surrender' rule for the SS doesn't seem to be in order for the game. And divisions fighing to the death doesn't mean that all individual members fought to the death, it means the formation fought on till it had no one left. But the losses could have come from many different factors, including surrenders by individuals or smaller groups.

As to the brigades of the SS-VT you mentioned earlier I'm still not sure what these mean. Maybe these are in fact the regiments that made up the SS-VT division after it's formation in '39. The unit was not used as a division for the invasion of france in 1940 but was split up. The motorised infantry regiments were given some of the other divisional units (artillery, recon, etc) giving each them brigade status. After the campaign they were merged again into a division, the brigade status being merely a temporary thing.
As to the kampfgruppe Nord thing, maybe that's something misunderstood by a source (of a source) somewhere as some of the SS field units served with Army Group North for Barbarossa.

The 17th SS fought against the US army in Normandy btw, not the british and canadians.