German ranks

[Shan]

Guys,

excellent collection of data posted here, I also own some books and other material on the SS, just didn't have time to post.

Overall, you have to consider the ambiguous recruiting policy f the (Waffen-)SS and therefore cannot apply the same morale/exp ratings to all SS units, neither parallel, nor throughout the course of the war. For example, you cannot apply the same exp/morale bonus to the 1st, 2nd SS-Panzerdivision or the nordic divisions and some formation consisting of Albanian or Ukrainian recruits and never reached division strength anyway... (Handschar, etc...)

During the early years (Poland, France), SS units were fighting very agressivley and therefore had a higher proportion of casualties, but generally most formations were of inferior standards, definitely inferior when compared to the Wehrmacht - for instance, the Polizeidivision and the Verfuegungsdivision were recruited from former policemen and guards, and used mostly captured weapons (czech, later polish, french, etc...) - those were not as well-trained or -equipped as the average Wehrmacht division. Also, the personnel used to rotate between frontline service and their 'normal' job as a concentration camp guard, etc...

Then, you have this problem of recruiting elite forces when the Waffen-SS was enlarged later in the war. There was a general lack of recruits, so the SS had no right to recruit normal Germans as the Wehrmacht did - it could only take volunteers, that's why it started to recruit in western and northern Europe and later had to give up its hight standards (arian hertiage, blond&blue eyes, etc) and recruit also from the german-speaking inhabitants of eastern europe ('Volksdeutsche'), who were generally looked down upon to say the least, and later they recruited even eastern europeans with no germanic blood at all- these were units mostly for rear guard & partisan-fighting duties- just as the Wehrmacht did when it turned russian POWs into 'Ostbataillone' of very low quality when it came to a fight.

At the same time, however, the elite formations were still kept up and even expanded - by using ever-younger boys, hence the division 'Hitlerjugend' - and those boys, raised in the system and totally loyal + devoted to it, fought like hell...

[blitzkreig]

Hello all,

Some interesting points. I think its worth noting that the "elite" divisons such as the 1st SS Pz Divison Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler suffered huge causalites during the latter stages of the war. To such an extent in fact it was technically "destoryed several times over" ie it lost more men than the divison actually contained over a period of time.

With the chronic German man power shortages these losses were often replaced by drafting unwilling volunters from the Lufwaffe into the units in mass. Even the Leibstandarte dropped any pretence of racial selection by the end of the war.

What is surprising is that these "premier" divsions functioned at all after these losses. replacemnts often only had months, weeks or even days to retrain and integrate. In any allied army the divison would have been decleared combat ineffective going through a similar process. A testamont to the effectivness of the NCO's and officers of these SS formations.

On a seperate note I do like to use SS formations and recreate their engagements. They performed some stunning feats of soldiering and were very adept at modern manouver warfare. The issues of warcrimes however has always left me feeling a little uncomfartable doing so. Espically since the more I reasrch German Pz and SS forces the more I come across. Does it bother other folks I wander?

[Marek_Tucan]

dunno about their addition to modern art of warfare, the impression I got was that that was rather domain of the Wehrmacht.

[blitzkreig]

Marek:

The Wehrmacht was certinally the inovaters. But by the time the elite SS units were converted into Pz Gren and then PZ Divisons they displayed some great tactical suscesses against staggering odds. The Germans were much better at it than the allies thats for sure!

[PatG]

blitzkreig said:
Marek:

The Wehrmacht was certinally the inovaters. But by the time the elite SS units were converted into Pz Gren and then PZ Divisons they displayed some great tactical suscesses against staggering odds. The Germans were much better at it than the allies thats for sure!

Again we get into the mystique of the Wehrmacht/SS. A technologically superior but numerically inferior force faces down more numerous but less advanced foes often on several fronts at once. Ironically, these are the same circumstances that lend the same mystique to modern Israeli forces.

What a weird world we game in. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Bullets.gif[/img]

[narwan]

Figured out what the SS kampfgruppe Nord is all about. That is in fact the 6 SS gebirgsjager division Nord. From what I've found they were a kampfgruppe for a short while before attaining full divisional status. The division was still being formed when the deployments in advance for Barbarossa were taking place in the eastern parts of the german reich and those of its allies (the 'kampfgruppe' went to Finland). That's were the reference to the kampfgruppe originates. However, it appears the formation did attain divisional status on the 17th of june 1941; so after the deployments began but before Barbarossa itself was launched. Which is why you usually don't see the Kampfgruppe appear on OB's for Barbarossa but the 6th SS division Nord does appear.
One mystery solved!

Edit:
Still a difference though, the kampfgruppe was formed from regiments 6, 7 and 9 (so not 5). And these appear to be regularly raised waffen-SS, so VT and not totenkopf units.

The 4th and 5th regiments formed the SS-Brigade 2 Reichsführer-SS and 8th and 10th regiments formed the SS-Brigade 1 Reichsführer-SS. For these to it would seem they were 'regular' waffen SS regiments, although it could well be that (some of) the men were recruited from Totenkopf units. I'll if I can find something on the origin of their recruits.

[narwan]

Since I'm at it anyway I'll keep going 'till I've got it figured out!

The 1 SS Brigade was indeed raised from Totenkopf Verbande. You are completley right on this Chuck. To be more precise:

8. SS-Totenkopfstandarte
circa 2,600 men
Raised 11/39 Cracow from SSTK Std. 4; became part of SS-Brigade 1 (SS Infantry Regiment 1) under Kommandostab RFSS April 1941; then tranferred to 18th SS Horst Wessel Jan. 1944 as SS-Grenadier Regt. 39. Directly involved in Holocaust assisting Einsatzgruppen A.

10. SS-Totenkopfstandarte
circa 2,500 men
Formed 11/39 Buchenwald from SSTK Std. 3. Became SS Brigade 1 (as SS Infantry Regiment 10) under Kommandostab RFSS April 1941, then tranferred to 18th SS Horst Wessel division Jan. 1944 as SS-Panzergrenadier Regt. 40.


So two TV verbande were turned into two regiments that then formed the 1 SS brigade. It's not clear when exactly it came into being as it had a couple of slightly different names in a short time span. Dates range from spring '41 to late summer '41 (the source where I got the above info use april '41 which is probably right). What does seem clear from it's record is that while it was a combat unit capable of regular combat operations (of which it conducted several) it was also or perhaps even mostly used for antipartisan duties and Einsatzkommando duties. Sounds like this was one of the most nasty units the waffen-ss had...

So far no luck on the other brigade but since the 1st was attached to the reserves of army group center I bet the second brigade was attached to army group south (and with similar origins).

Edit: the 1 SS brigade was not attached to army group center but was part of the OKH reserves, the command staff of the RFSS to be more precise. It didn't become 'active' till july. Can't find anything substantial on the 2nd brigade, except that it existed at some point.

For those interested I did find this reference to a source:

"PRECHTL, G.M. "Unsere Ehre Heißt Treue": Kriegstagebuch des Kommandosstabes Reichführer-SS - Tätigkeitsberichte der 1. und 2. SS-Inf.Brigade, der 1. SS-Kav.Brigade und von Sonderkommandos der SS. Wien: Europa Verlag, 1984. As I recall, this is a HUGE book - maybe 850 pages or more."


The SS cavalry brigade mentioned seems to have been used in a similar role as the two brigades. It later became the Florian Geyer division.

Narwan

[wulfir]

narwan said:
Edit:
Still a difference though, the kampfgruppe was formed from regiments 6, 7 and 9 (so not 5). And these appear to be regularly raised waffen-SS, so VT and not totenkopf units.

I have a source* stating that the 9th Regiment was formed from the Totenkopfstandarte "Kirkenes" - a fully motorised formation deployed to the desolote northern Finnish regions. It participated in the fighting around Salla and Kiestinki and performed with a serious lack of profesionalism, suffring heavy losses in these early fighting (something that was true for NORD as a whole).

Gyllenhaal, L - Slaget om Nordkalotten

[narwan]

The 9th was originally part of the kampfgruppe but when they went to Finland the 9th was detached. The rest formed the division, perhaps the 5th was added then to fill out the division with a 3rd regiment?

The 9th went on as an independent regiment and was send to Finland not much after the rest. It seems all of these were very undertrained. I read a quote on another board to the effect that they weren't much more than civilians in uniforms when they were send into action.

Narwan