Capturing Capitols

[Ballbarian]

If (make that a big IF) the ability to modify or assign units to custom population types in a map file were added, it would be easy to allow recruitment of specific national units underneath the normal nationals which become disabled when you capture the cap. (Are you listening JK/KO? )

[Kristoffer O]

Capturing gems:

I generally like the idea of plundering capitols, but it was decided against in the early days of dom-ppp. There are several reasons to this. Micromanagement is one. Interconnection of labs another. You could say that all gems are transported to the metaphysical lab of everywhere after all is lost, to keep the realism

Also treasuries are interconnected. The micromanagement heavy and realistic solution is of course to separate the economy. One city, one lab. One city one economy. Transport all your gold by cart or with your armies. Keep the salary chest with your soldiers. Risk loosing it when attacked. Baggage trains with supplies. There is no end to the economic and logistical implications of this system. I like it a lot, but it would make dominions an entirely different game. So we skipped the logistics (it's bad enough that gems are moved around ) and the effect is that there is no particular effect of plundering a lab or capitol.

A nice solution to this, which I personally like, but also has been decided against, is an autoplunder, so that armies automatically plunder every province, and especially fortress, they capture. Reduce the population by half or more and get some quick gold and merry, unstarving soldiers. I think most players detest this idea, since most players in my experience dislike the downward spiral of dominions .

Only being able to recruit your own national troops is one of the basic tenets that dominions is built around. When dom-ppp was initially designed we had played a couple of games in which a few players came to be all possible nations at the same time. Take VGA-planets where you were lucky if you could capture an enemy ship an copy it. Soon the fleet of the Evil Empire was made up of Death Stars towed by privateer ships. Same thing in other PBEM games where your army soon turned into rainbow armies of the elite units from every nation. Not much fun either.

To avoid 3 players sitting and farting in their capitols, use VP, preferrably cumulative, one in each capitol and one extra. This way you can't afford sitting around if you are not the leading nation.

[Jazzepi]

I've always felt the advantage of a huge spike in gold and gem income was far and away enough to encourage people to conquer capitals. As well as getting rid of one of your opponents.

I know that my capital in Perpetuality is worth more than 7-8 provinces combined.

Jazzepi

[Nick_K]

I don't think elite or special units should be recruitable, but it'd be nice if the non-human capitals had units of the correct species recruitable when captured. These shouldn't be stronger than other indep forces, but it's a tweak, like the species-specific undead, that I think would help immersion. Of course, this isn't a big deal.

[SlipperyJim]

Kristoffer O said:
Only being able to recruit your own national troops is one of the basic tenets that dominions is built around. When dom-ppp was initially designed we had played a couple of games in which a few players came to be all possible nations at the same time. Take VGA-planets where you were lucky if you could capture an enemy ship an copy it. Soon the fleet of the Evil Empire was made up of Death Stars towed by privateer ships. Same thing in other PBEM games where your army soon turned into rainbow armies of the elite units from every nation. Not much fun either.

For my $0.02, this was a good decision. It guarantees more replayability for Dominions, because each game is slightly different depending on your national troops. National spells only increase the variability.

Dom3 would be a lot less fun if Man & Ulm played the same, let alone Abysia, Caelum, and/or Agartha.

[Meglobob]

SlipperyJim said:

For my $0.02, this was a good decision. It guarantees more replayability for Dominions, because each game is slightly different depending on your national troops. National spells only increase the variability.

Dom3 would be a lot less fun if Man & Ulm played the same, let alone Abysia, Caelum, and/or Agartha.

I agree with Slippery Jims comments here.

However, how about somewhere slightly inbetween, when you conquer another races capital, you have a 1 in 3 chance of being able to recruit that races national troop types/leaders. This always excludes that races sacreds.

So for example, I conquer MA Agarthas capital, a one off check then occurs for MA Agarthas national troops as follows:-

Agarthan scout 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Cave captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one Captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan light infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Argathan heavy infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one soldier 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.

Ancient one, attendant of oracles, earth reader, golem crafter, ancient lord and oracle of ancients are all sacred so can never be reruitable by another nation. Those units are dedicated to Agartha and there god only.

Should Agartha reconquer his capital all units are recruitable as normal. But should any other nation conquer it after, the original units who made the 1 in 3 are recruitable, another check is not made.

I believe this would stop all nations morphing into one problem but make capitals more tempting targets with a greater reward for the conquerer. It would also open up more tactics/strategies up for individual nations later in the game.

It would also reflect the nation being enslaved/conquered/ruled by the host nation. Its very unrealistic at the moment that a nations entire conquered population refuse to serve there conquerer. The Roman Empire for example had its armies made up more of auxilleries from conquered nations than soldiers from Rome/Italy.

[Edratman]

I think Meglobob has gotten it pretty much on the money for recruiting troops when a capitol is conquered. I was thinking some probability between 10 and 25%, but that difference is just a detail. He is exactly right in his statement that sacreds should not be recruitable and his reasoning is irrefutable.

After all, one of the primary features of the game is recruiting independents, so national troops should not be excepted. By excluding sacred troops, the vast majority of the units will not be a significent alteration in the strategy or balence of the game. The foremost benefit that I can see is access to magic paths or levels that are only achievable via empowerment. And by assigning a probability to the recruitment of the units, a player will not be guaranteed anything. By the way, I would program, if possible, a player only getting one swing at the recruitable unit probabilty to forestall handing the capitol back multiple times until a desired unit is deemed recruitable. It wouldn't even be out of the question if there was a cap put on the number of units that can pass the dice roll election process. You might end up getting scout and slinger as your recruitable units. C'est la vie.

This limited choice of other national troops would not limit replayablity but actually enhance it in my opinion. Every time you conquer a capitol new units are entirely up to chance. No different than cool, low probabilty magic sites.

As for the looting of the gem and gold treasury, many of you pointed out the errors in the initial proposal. But I still hold to the concept that a significent portion of the treasury, say 10 to 30% should be up for grabs as dropped battlefield loot. There is little or no historic precedent for a nation to remove 100% of its valuables from the capitol just prior to the crumbling of its walls. A player should be penalized finacially as well as physically when he manages to lose his capitol.

The major downside to this is that comeback eforts would be severly hindered by the gem and gold losses. But then again, I have never come back after a capitol loss anyway. No doubt many have, but I would think almost all of those were instances where the opponent snuck a stealthy army into a poorly defended capitol. And if that is the case, how would the nation have the time to successfully sneak all its treasury away? And wouldn't a primary objective of this sneak attack be looting?

[thejeff]

Hmmm, sacred mages become even more desirable. You're less of a target since an enemy won't profit as much.
Imagine Ulm suddenly getting access to Pans or Mystics. That'd change the game, and the nature of the nation drastically.

It would be interesting to try out as a mod, but I wouldn't want to see it in the base game.

Maybe just troops. That could be interesting. Add a little variety without a major power boost.

[Humakty]

For my part, in SP I find Capitols somewhat attractive :
It often allows me to diversify my magic a lot, even if it is not often worthy enougth to make an assault.Some over bonuses would be welcomed, so as to incite people not to just sit before the walls and watch them die from diseases.( as an assault is difficult because of the many mages that often stay in a capitol)

[Digress]

Meglobob said:

However, how about somewhere slightly inbetween, when you conquer another races capital, you have a 1 in 3 chance of being able to recruit that races national troop types/leaders. This always excludes that races sacreds.

So for example, I conquer MA Agarthas capital, a one off check then occurs for MA Agarthas national troops as follows:-

Agarthan scout 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Cave captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one Captain 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan light infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Agarthan infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Argathan heavy infantry 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.
Pale one soldier 1 in 3 chance of still being recruitable.

Ancient one, attendant of oracles, earth reader, golem crafter, ancient lord and oracle of ancients are all sacred so can never be reruitable by another nation. Those units are dedicated to Agartha and there god only.

Should Agartha reconquer his capital all units are recruitable as normal. But should any other nation conquer it after, the original units who made the 1 in 3 are recruitable, another check is not made.

I believe this would stop all nations morphing into one problem but make capitals more tempting targets with a greater reward for the conquerer. It would also open up more tactics/strategies up for individual nations later in the game.

It would also reflect the nation being enslaved/conquered/ruled by the host nation. Its very unrealistic at the moment that a nations entire conquered population refuse to serve there conquerer. The Roman Empire for example had its armies made up more of auxilleries from conquered nations than soldiers from Rome/Italy.

I think this might well be a good idea - but should probably include a dominion effect - you should have to displace the conquered nations dominion and replace it with your own before you can incorporate the conquered nations national troops into your army. Maybe even have the requirement that the nation that has lost the capitol be completely destroyed before the "faithful" are willing to be recruits in the army of their conquerer.

I also think there should be some sort of random event in captured capitols representing the oppressed nation attempting to rise once again - maybe even with a low power AI controlled pretender leading the rebellion (this would only occur should the orignal pretender have been completely defeated).