German ranks

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
"Sorry but in my reading I don't see normal infantry combat - I see hit and run, infiltration and of course the massed charge." Sorry, no offence intended but perhaps you havn't done enough reading yet? If you are basing your comments on Jap vs Marines engagements these are only a small part of the Japanese war effort and in these engagements the Japanese troops are often in a position where normal infantry tactics aren't feasable. Your "massed charge" is a last ditch measure usually without proper artillery preperation. These acts of desperation happened during the last gasps of isolated Japanese Island garrisons or at the limits of Japanese expansion, Guadal Canal and New Guinea for instance. In these campagns the Japs were at the end of very tenous supply deep in enemy territory and had orders to destroy the beach head or "take the position" with whatever means they had and do it before the well supplied enemy brought in more reinforcements. Result, unsupported infantry attack, your "massed charge". Under "normal" conditions they fought like normal infantry. I have yet to see anything about them using "hit and run", perhaps an example?

Im hoping your not suggesting Japanese infantry/Gunjuns? stood up to draw fire?

Does "Combat Officer: A Memoir of War in the South Pacific" mention which campaign tied up snipers occoured in?

Your sniper scouting example is actually an example of observation not scouting and is the wrong war anyway.

The vast majority of armies dont have specific "scouts" scouting parties are usually made up of regular infantry drawn from the nearest infantry platoon, as such they dont have any special observation or camoflage skills. You may be confusing the current excitement about special forces with the regular infantry/snipers that operated during WW2. The aim may be to get information and not get killed but moving into unknown territory close to the enemy is obviously very likely to get you killed.

Could you define light infantry? I dont think the Japanese qualify. Japanese soldiers AFAIK actually had the heaviest packs of any infantry and had all the same types of weapons and the same organisation as any other countries infantry.
I think you may be placing to much emphasis on the Japanese response to the American Island Hopping campaign at the expense of how they operated on other fronts, Hollywood should also take some of the blame I think.
Best regards Chuck

[PatG]

Start with:
A Historical Perspective on Light Infantry
by Major Scott R. McMichael

(edit)
And
Nomonhan: Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat 1939
http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...rea2/drea2.asp

Follow up with:
Out of nowhere : a history of the military sniper / Martin Pegler.

Those will cover the basics of my arguments. If I have the time or inclination to go through the PDFs I have gathered, I will pm or post in a new thread.

This is an off-topic thread - I'm not going into anymore detail at this point.

ps: offence taken.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat Sorry for the Offence.
Thanks also for providing the link Ive read it and it is very interesting If you have no further interest in discussing these matters thats fair enough. I would just like to bookmark a few specific points from your links text here to avoid another reading of the link if this topic arises again later.

"As the new conscripts of the 7th Division underwent their advanced infantry training on the dusty plains near Tsitsihar, its members concentrated on the three cardinal drills of the IJA: bayonet practice, firing practice, and maneuver"
"Taking advantage of folds in the ground, sand dunes, and depressions for cover, 5th and 7th Companies employed fire and movement tactics to advance about 1,500 meters. Riflemen would dash forward to the next suitable ground concealment and from there fire at enemy strongpoints to keep Soviet weapons crews pinned down so that other Japanese infantrymen could rush forward"
No Japanese massed charges.
Japanese retreated in good order.
Infiltration and "hit and run"(raids) more common for the soviets than the Japanese.
A soviet sniper did move forward but did so in the company of an infantry platoon.
"They appeared to be an artillery observation squad with an infantry security platoon."
after being shot up
"Sweeping the killing ground, Japanese troops recovered twenty rifles, three light machine guns, a sniper rifle, and twenty pieces of various field telephone equipment."
You may find these links of interest.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwi...a/chapter9.htm
Best Regards Chuck.

[wulfir]

Here's an interesting piece regarding the initial fighting between the Japanese and Australians along the Kokoda track:

"The Japanese were easily able to push the Australians back: their numbers were far superior, as was their drill.

They would often send a scout forward and be prepared to lose him, which would be followed by an almost immediate strong frontal attack, in which quick casualties were often accepted. But the speed with which they then outflanked and encircled and destroyed the enemy reflected their light equipment, their excellent camouflage and, above all, their tremendous and almost silent deployment."

from A Bastard of a Place: The Australians in Papua, p 100.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Wuljur

Quotes from Orbis publishers WWII
Im still not sure what light infantry means, for instance
In the Kokoda campaign the Japanese infantry carried a 100 pounds load. Artilleryman and engineers carried an extra 16 pounds. "The Soldiers made a kind of woodmans carrying rack for their load and like pilgrims with portable shrines carried it on their backs. Now they plodded on, step by step supported by a stick through those mountains of New Guinea"
The Japanese had also dragged two 70mm howitzers and Mortars along this 3 ft wide track which made them -more- Heavily armed than their initial opponents the Australian Milita which had no howitzers and possibly no mortars.
Here is something from their manual
"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensly dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."
The New zealanders however did have night fighting training.
So it seems that in this situation scouting is indeed a hazardous operation, suicidal in fact ie because it is along a single track and the enemy is hidden in the jungle.
Ive found that in most detailed decriptions of Japanese jungle figthing that the speed of their response (excellent training) and speed through the jungle (excellent fitness) consistently amazed (and defeated) the Allies, which is why I used to like it when the Japs had 8 movement points instead of 7.

Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'
"We all talk about fighting to the last man and the last bullet. The Japanese soldier was the only one that did it"

[PanzerBob]

"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensely dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."

This falls into the old adege that "The First Casuality of War is the Truth".

The Allies had similar prejudices of their "Jap" enemies which the front line soliders soon learnt were not true, and those who didn't, did so at their own peril.

The same was true of the German beliefs of the Russian and even American soldiers.

All part of the psychology of warfare, a part of war that if one forgets like logistics, one may find his army in deep kimchi.

Eternal War(gaming) PanzerBob

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'

Slim was British.

"We are taking Umbrage."
- Calvert

[chuckfourth]

Howdy
You are correct confusing him with stillwell, check check and then check again.
Chuck