Sophistry - (Finished) Winner DrPraetorious!

[Baalz]

Sensori said:
Now, here we have a big difference in ideology. I don't think that attacking can ever be seen as honorable (especially since the reason seems to always be "I NEED MY EMPIRE TO GROW"), unless the target is something like Ashen Empire Ermor where it's a public service. I see it as the defender's duty to fight the attacker to the bitter end, and do whatever it takes to slow down his demise. The analogy that comes to mind is a mugger expecting the mugged to just, well, be mugged, if the said mugger says, "I'm gonna mug you now!" I see that things are only different if the attacker gets overpowered by the defender. THEN you're just getting what's coming to ya, and it's all your fault.

Well, not to egg on a rant, but I thought I might elaborate on my point about sportsmanship that obviously touched a nerve. Your analogy of a mugging seems a bit out of place, obviously if you're being victimized by a criminal sportsmanship doesn't have any bearing- you fight as dirty as you can. My feeling though, is I'm not being mugged, I'm playing a game whose sole purpose is the mutual enjoyment of all involved. A well fought opponent deserves a congratulations and a (virtual) handshake, not me doing every annoying thing I can think of to make his life more difficult against his *next* opponent after I have no hope of lasting more than a few turns.

Just to be clear I'm not talking about whatever happened in this game (which didn't effect me and I have no particular opinion on), but rather the position that its good policy to do your best to dick over whoever beats you by destroying your buildings, pillaging your own lands, and giving your gems to anyone who seems likely to use them against him. That, as I said, just smacks of poor sportsmanship being justified by weak rational.

[Sensori]

Baalz said:
Well, not to egg on a rant, but I thought I might elaborate on my point about sportsmanship that obviously touched a nerve.

All it did was make me go "..." here behind the monitor, because I find "bad sportsmanship" to be the one of the stupidest terms used when it comes to games, especially when you're using it to describe someone defending against an opponent that's winning, not because of skill (as FAJ said, he's just clickin' the Helhirding button), but because of an early game imbalance that's in his favor.

A well fought opponent deserves a congratulations and a (virtual) handshake

Yeah. As I said, if I had been able to FIGHT him, I would've acted differently. But the point you're missing is that nothing was "well fought" in this war. All he needed to do was show up. Did you miss the part where I said my 100 man army lost to 10 Helhirdings? Because it happened. I had set up the army, I had given my mages orders to use the few spells I had. And everywhere we met, I lost.

but rather the position that its good policy to do your best to dick over whoever beats you by destroying your buildings,

It is a good policy if you get rushed early and there's nothing you can do about it because your nation's capabilities to thwart it suck. At least you're making sure that your enemy won't just grow stronger, but has to actually do something to get full use of places. I don't see what's the problem with that, really. If I can't fight him on the battlefield, of course I fight him where I can, which is his pocket book.

pillaging your own lands,

Actually, I pillaged HIS lands in an attempt to keep him away from my lands, and set mine to 200% tax. There's the difference. But yes, I would've pillaged Marverni proper without a blink of an eye if I had had the chance, because now he has a what, 400 gold income giving province that also provides some gems which he just had to sit in for a couple of turns and then press the "storm" button. I don't think he even lost a single helhirding in the process.

SUCH A HARD FOUGHT VICTORY. Jesus Christ.

That, as I said, just smacks of poor sportsmanship being justified by weak rational.

Well, you aren't really justifying your position with a great rational, either. You are making it sound that you think that nations like Marverni shouldn't even try to do anything but die ASAP against early rush nations because it sure as hell can't fight off their armies. Sure, it'd make the attacker happy, but it wouldn't make anyone else happy. And doesn't make for a fun game for the player of Marverni, either.

In fact, I'll come around and say that attacking a nation that can't defend itself against you at all is worse sportsmanship than that nation trying to do something against you! ;p

[FAJ]

Oh now common. I was anything but unsportsmanly.

I have been trounced by early rushers before too; it is frusterating. You explained your position; pillaging my provinces and bumping taxes in your own for a resource war. That is legit. I think scorching the earth for bitterness' sake is wrong. You didn't do that, so I don't know what the argument is.

I would have been upset if you started pillaging Marverni the turn we attacked eachother. You didnt even scuttle the lab, which was nice of you. (Your spirit lived on and a random event burned it down a turn later though ).

[Sensori]

I didn't? I swear I tried to!

Mental note: if breaking the lab and storming takes place the same turn, lab stays up. But at least the event broke it down, so... Just as planned!

FAJ, I was just kidding when I said that (about the sportsmanship). It's how Helheim's set up, you pretty much need to rush someone early on if you don't want to die. "Problem" is that people you'll rush won't wanna die, either. It's funny though that no one who had anything to do with the war had nothing negative to say about it. Just people who're God knows where on the map do.

Sure, when Marverni was besieged I was thinking I would've pillaged it if I had the chance (if you had broken the siege, THEN I would've started pillaging it), but seriously enough, it was my only bigger source of income for as long as it was free, so me pillaging it beforehand wouldn't really been very likely. I needed it as much as you probably needed it to pay for the upkeep on your crazy Helhirding armies. ;p

[tibbs]

As long as you are playing within the rules of the game(not cheating) I dont' have a problem with it. This isn't really a "sport" so sportsmanship doesn't apply. This is a game about war.

Did Hitler say Stalin was "unsportsmanlike" when Stalin burned down every village that the Germans captured during the Barbarossa advance?

[FAJ]

well, the pillaging isn't really gonna hurt me too badly anyways. It will hurt Pangaea . He will have those provinces soon enough. My "army" of ~15 valkries stands adjacent to his 1000+ legion of doom and in spitting distance of his gorgon.

In other news; is there any trick to dealing with a petrifying opponent when you have no mages/research?

[Jazzepi]

Conceding.

Jazzepi