Vengeance of the dead, what the hell

[lch]

Ah, it seems that if the poor victim can't kill off those that haunt his dreams in time he just NEVER wakes up. So what?

[Salamander8]

Kind of a side question, but related to VotD. I know your guards don't help against this spell, but do say, Dai Oni's wolf pals appear for this spell?

[lch]

Kuritza said:
No I can't because if you do read what I say, you ignore it. Lets see. 18 MR base, +3 mr rainbow armor, +4 antimagic amulet. Thats 25 already; also he was in a friendly domain. Is that HIGH to you?

Being a good fellow reader of all your posts I'm fairly sure that this is the first time that you posted any actual numbers. Give it a rest, will you? So, I'm not that good at statistics, but not counting any other kind of bonus, I think that your enemy beat you at a 81% chance (or better) of resisting said spell. Good for him. Especially since he caught you "off-guard", wielding an uneffective Frost Brand against cold immune troops.

Kuritza said:
You keep pointing out that everything should have a counter.

I keep pointing out that this spell is ineffective under certain situations, yes. It won't work against undeads, it won't be a danger if your pretender doesn't waltz through the enemy lines and kills hundreds. I think that it might not work against glamor or even stealthy units, not sure.
If you employ a SC-type pretender then usually you should be aware that he is going to go down at one point or the other. I for one would not like if there weren't any early-game counters against those - yes, even with low-tech research.
The turn limit is a necessary evil that we have to live with and raising the bar doesn't help against reaching it eventually. Alternatives to what happens after the turn limit are open to discussion and pro's and con' have to get weighted. Most suggestions here would help to make SC types even stronger and cement them as unbeatable foes in game.

Salamander8 said:
Kind of a side question, but related to VotD. I know your guards don't help against this spell, but do say, Dai Oni's wolf pals appear for this spell?

They should, same about undead from the Wraith crown or water elementals from the bottle of water. Anything you summon will help, and these auto-summon at start of battle.

[Kuritza]

So basically, with a MR as high as you can get, you have a 20% chance to die even if you sit in your capitol. Which, in turn, means that all Ermor needs is 15 astral gems or less (12 in my case, 2 attempts per turn for 2 turns). Please tell me how is it fair? Isnt a goddamn paralyze not good enough as a counter?
Did he catch me off guard without an aoe-weapon? Pray tell me, how can MA Caelum make a fire brand early in the game then.
SCs are unbalanced? Really, in a game where 2x bless vans or shadow vestals etc can rush you into oblivion before you even research construction 4? So SCs need a low-level global spell that kills them 1/5 of the time. Makes so much sense to give a reliable and uncounteralbe overland map counter for my counter, its not enough that SCs are very easy to counter on the battlefield for an astral-using nation.

[Edi]

Kuritza said:
So basically, with a MR as high as you can get, you have a 20% chance to die even if you sit in your capitol. Which, in turn, means that all Ermor needs is 15 astral gems or less (12 in my case, 2 attempts per turn for 2 turns). Please tell me how is it fair? Isnt a goddamn paralyze not good enough as a counter?
Did he catch me off guard without an aoe-weapon? Pray tell me, how can MA Caelum make a fire brand early in the game then.
SCs are unbalanced? Really, in a game where 2x bless vans or shadow vestals etc can rush you into oblivion before you even research construction 4? So SCs need a low-level global spell that kills them 1/5 of the time. Makes so much sense to give a reliable and uncounteralbe overland map counter for my counter, its not enough that SCs are very easy to counter on the battlefield for an astral-using nation.

So, if you have a SC pretender with hundreds of kills and you know there's a spell like VotD around and you do not have the effective counters to it yet, WHY is your god sitting still in the capital waiting for the axe to fall?

The enemy must be able to pinpoint the location of the god before he can nail it with VotD and if you move your god around, instead of a single VotD, he needs to blanket your whole damned territory or at the very least several provinces with the spell and that gets expensive gem and mage-turn wise very fast.

To be blunt, I read the whole thread through and all I'm getting from your post is a sense of outrage that your god got killed because you
a) failed to take certain possibilities into account
b) lacked the equipment that would have made the difference because you had not traded for it yet at that point
c) knew you were getting hammered with a potentially lethal overland spell and SAT STILL, waiting for the axe to fall.

Let's see, sympathy meter reading...yep, big, round zero.

The turn limit is necessary, though some increase might do good and the default resolution of exceeding the limit is up for discussion. The default resolution for VotD and possibly also for attacks spawned by Looming Hell are easily explained by the target of the attack running out of mental resources to resist if the turn limit is reached.

[Kuritza]

Let's see, sympathy meter reading...yep, big, round zero.

Oh, no problem at all, its mutual. I just love ignorant people.
>> a) failed to take certain possibilities into account
I failed? How come, do you read my mind? I knew this might happen, and I couldnt do anything about it. This is where frustration comes from, no valid coulter in my situation, I was made a sitting duck by game mechanics. Besides, I was kinda caught by surprise by the fact these zombies dont ever rout, I expected mindless undead to dissolve in the end.
>> b) lacked the equipment that would have made the difference because you had not traded for it yet at that point
Abyssia just researched lvl 4 construction. Nobody else could craft it; not all nations go into construction first, you know. I'll receive firebrand next turn, too bad my 25+ MR didnt let me surivive more than one round. See the point? Let me show you: VotD is just a lvl4 research spell which kicks in early, I simply had no way of preparing for it. I had nobody to trade for it with, period.
>> c) knew you were getting hammered with a potentially lethal overland spell and SAT STILL, waiting for the axe to fall.
I knew I am getting hammered with a potentially lethal overland spell still and I SAT STILL IN A FRIENDLY DOMAIN BECAUSE I COULDNT HIDE FROM IT, ITS OVERLAND! THATS THE WHOLE DAMN POINT, YOU CANT HIDE FROM THIS AXE IN MANY CASES.
And the fact the spell is situational doesnt make it less OP in these situations.

Lets see, sympathy meter reading... yes, below the ground.

The default resolution for VotD and possibly also for attacks spawned by Looming Hell are easily explained by anything, as usual with fictional things, and I can come with 2x as much good explainations why attackers should lose, you can even find some good ones in this very thread.

[Aethyr]

Dude, ya gotta relax a bit.

Here's the deal: sometimes, either because of the side you've chosen, or how you've built your God, or how you've equipped your SC, you may not have a counter for certian things. It's called "balance". Get over it and prepare yourselve better next time.

[Edi]

Kuritza said:
I knew I am getting hammered with a potentially lethal overland spell still and I SAT STILL IN A FRIENDLY DOMAIN BECAUSE I COULDNT HIDE FROM IT, ITS OVERLAND! THATS THE WHOLE DAMN POINT, YOU CANT HIDE FROM THIS AXE IN MANY CASES.

So, moving around, as in not giving the enemy a sitting, guaranteed target he knows where to whack every turn isn't a potential counter? I know magic attacks come before movement, but if you manage to move out once you know you're being targeted, he needs to take the shotgun to targeting. You may not be able to hide 100% effectively, but you can try to dodge and based on what has been said, it seems that you did not try that.

Make a SC god, run the risk of having it pasted by something unexpected in the early game, because SCs actually take some time to develop. You're still screaming about sour grapes related to one game because you ran afoul of that risk.

Get back to me when you have some actual evidence of VotD being as overpowered across the board as you are making it out to be.

[Jazzepi]

lch said:

Being a good fellow reader of all your posts I'm fairly sure that this is the first time that you posted any actual numbers. Give it a rest, will you? So, I'm not that good at statistics, but not counting any other kind of bonus, I think that your enemy beat you at a 81% chance (or better) of resisting said spell. Good for him. Especially since he caught you "off-guard", wielding an uneffective Frost Brand against cold immune troops.

I'm going to have to agree with Ich on this one. VoTD killed your SC. It sounds like if your SC had a firebrand in hand he would have ripped through the hordes of undead and this conversation wouldn't even be happening right now.

IMHO, you were ill prepared for a well placed attack that had a low 1/5 chance of penetrating your MR, but did. Perhaps it was cast multiple times in the same round, I don't know what kind of message the spell gives if it fizzles. Or maybe it was cast by a mage with lots of spell penetration items, it's not hard to get +5 with construction 4 and a rainbow mage.

In any case, I think the way to look at it is like this.

VoTD has three checks/requirements before it kills the target
1. The victim has to have high enough kills.
2. The victim has to fail an MR roll.
3. The victim has to fail to kill all the undead in 75 turns.

So instead of complaining about the fact that the SC routed and died after 75 turns, I think it's just more interesting to think about it like a third check that VoTD has on it.

Also, friendly dominion doesn't mean anything for MR saves unless it was a prophet or God.

Jazzepi

[Kuritza]

Also, friendly dominion doesn't mean anything for MR saves unless it was a prophet or God.

Sigh... yes, it was my God. I'm still open to suggestions about how to make a non-frost aoe weapon for a MA Caelum early in the game with an SC god.
And while we are at it, how to avoid getting many kills if you rely on your God to survive agains 2x bless shadow vestals and hordes of undead.
Which leaves us with just one condition, namely MR. Which means its just a matter of time when your God dies, you cant do jack about it.