Hidden in Snow

[Reverend Zombie]

Rytek said:
I have always had best luck at late summer and worse luck during late winter..

My crap result (no mage, a few of the worse troops), was from a late summer casting, so I don't think season is any guarantee of better results.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

It's not the greatest troops, but when I've been lucky, I've found it great in a siege.

Winter wolves are mindless, I think. Most of the undead are mindless too. If I remember my math right, each one of them counts as two and a half regular troops.

... Though from that point of view, the Sea trolls are probably a better use of water gems at 4.8 castle defense each, and a reliable amount of troops. Though size and food may be an issue.

They don't compare that favorably to Legion of Wights, either - though are available a lot easier at enchant six than enchant nine.

I just can't see building a strategy around them, ever- though it is worth noting that even the lowly unfrozen have a MR of 17.

Since I cast them anyways, I am interested in seeing how an army of 20something unfrozen + mage with 60 ghosts and 10 Winter Wolves fares.

[Sir_Dr_D]

That spell is really meant for LA Atlantis I believe and for LA Atlantis I find hidden in snow to be a great spell. For undead they have great stats. Above average hitpoints, high magic resitance, high defense and a cold aura. And you can cast it using water gems instead of death gems. There is a lot more use for death gems then water, so that in itself is a bonus. Combine them with darkness, wolven winter, and cold fatigue spells, and they do great.

[Lingchih]

I cast it with Niefelheim a couple of times (same game). I had great luck with it, with each casting bringing at least one good mage, and the full complement of troops (25 I think). Maybe I was just lucky.

[PvK]

Right ((Edit by the English police) reading "useful" as "efficient" or "competitive", the way it is typically abused in this forum). The point that it can give several nations magic paths in combos types and levels that they don't have, though, makes it well worth the cost, though how many castings it'll take to get that payoff is uncertain. Which is pretty interesting, IMO, though of course people who hate not to get what they want may get upset.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Out of curiosity, how many of you have tried it in early eras? I'd presume their lower protection would still be quite nice before armor really gets around.

[PvK]

I've used it (Edit: sorry, by "it" I meant Dragon Master) in early era, in a large SP game, having fun, with one of my many mages, mainly going for ice drakes to add to my undead / unfrozen army, since they are cold immune.

[Kristoffer O]

People tend to lack patience in MP I guess. If they can't calculate the gains they are reluctant to use a spell.

Hidden in Snow might not be worth it if you don't get a mage, but if you get two, you can assume thet one of them is better than the average one and probably worth it in his own right.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
People tend to lack patience in MP I guess.

Its not lack of patience, its the fact if your wasteful and ineffecient in MP, you end up very dead, very quickly.

To be competitive in MP you after manage your gems very carefully, this spell vs potiential gains is simply too expensive in gem cost as it stands now vs potential returns.

Like to see it influenced by season/luck/heat/cold scale, this may allow you to up the number of effects, thus make the spell more viable. It may then become a bargain to cast at certain times of the year with certain scales.

[Zath]

How about this line of reasoning...

The mage is the only valuable unit produced by Hidden in Snow. This is evident when the Unfrozen are compared to other summons of the same level, such as trolls and ghosts.

Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

Disregarding pretender magic paths, the only nations with access to water and death magic to cast Hidden in Snow but lacking in earth are MA Caelum, EA/MA C'tis, EA Niefelheim, MA/LA Jotunheim, and EA Sauromatia.

Given the gem cost of this spell, the mage must get multiple earth picks to be worth the cost, otherwise you could just trade for some earth gems and use empowerment instead.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Hidden in Snow is therefore a spell of very limited use, and still quite weak for its niche of providing earth magic to nations with water and death due to its unacceptable level of risk - just one or two failed castings will likely exhaust your gem supply and set you back many turns. This problem is further exacerbated in MP games where trading is allowed and one has the option to empower in earth without taking on such risks.

If the balance of this spell is supposed to be based on its performance in MP games, then it is certainly in need of improvement. One guaranteed mage with one guaranteed pick in earth magic would be a good way to start out, and you can reduce the chance of additional earth picks to keep its power level in check too.