Hidden in Snow

[PvK]

I've used it (Edit: sorry, by "it" I meant Dragon Master) in early era, in a large SP game, having fun, with one of my many mages, mainly going for ice drakes to add to my undead / unfrozen army, since they are cold immune.

[Kristoffer O]

People tend to lack patience in MP I guess. If they can't calculate the gains they are reluctant to use a spell.

Hidden in Snow might not be worth it if you don't get a mage, but if you get two, you can assume thet one of them is better than the average one and probably worth it in his own right.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
People tend to lack patience in MP I guess.

Its not lack of patience, its the fact if your wasteful and ineffecient in MP, you end up very dead, very quickly.

To be competitive in MP you after manage your gems very carefully, this spell vs potiential gains is simply too expensive in gem cost as it stands now vs potential returns.

Like to see it influenced by season/luck/heat/cold scale, this may allow you to up the number of effects, thus make the spell more viable. It may then become a bargain to cast at certain times of the year with certain scales.

[Zath]

How about this line of reasoning...

The mage is the only valuable unit produced by Hidden in Snow. This is evident when the Unfrozen are compared to other summons of the same level, such as trolls and ghosts.

Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

Disregarding pretender magic paths, the only nations with access to water and death magic to cast Hidden in Snow but lacking in earth are MA Caelum, EA/MA C'tis, EA Niefelheim, MA/LA Jotunheim, and EA Sauromatia.

Given the gem cost of this spell, the mage must get multiple earth picks to be worth the cost, otherwise you could just trade for some earth gems and use empowerment instead.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Hidden in Snow is therefore a spell of very limited use, and still quite weak for its niche of providing earth magic to nations with water and death due to its unacceptable level of risk - just one or two failed castings will likely exhaust your gem supply and set you back many turns. This problem is further exacerbated in MP games where trading is allowed and one has the option to empower in earth without taking on such risks.

If the balance of this spell is supposed to be based on its performance in MP games, then it is certainly in need of improvement. One guaranteed mage with one guaranteed pick in earth magic would be a good way to start out, and you can reduce the chance of additional earth picks to keep its power level in check too.

[Meglobob]

Zath said:
Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Personally, I'm not attracted by the mages, at all.
I'm LA Atlantis, often, and have w3d2 mages, quite a few with random air or earth.

I don't want the whole rationalization for this spell to be the mages, I just want them to be the gravy. I'm interested in the Unfrozen/Unfrozen Warriors, thank you very much.

[Kristoffer O]

Meglobob said:

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

I suppose I am playing MA Mictlan in the same MP game and have already cast Hidden in snow once. I'm quite satisfied with the results and I suppose intend to continue casting the spell.

- The unfrozen actually thanked the Totl, Lord of Light, Enemy of Darkness, for their release from the Caelian ice prison. They claim Lord Flasheart wronged them in ancient times when they exterminated the Yazatas once living in the Caelian mountains. Now they are intent on vengeance, and it is only through Laws and stern justice thet they are prevented from finishing their ancient task of eliminating the Yazatas and their descendants.

Of the three paths available to the mage only water is readily available to mictlan to any greater extent. The addition of unfrozen mages is a splendid way to use gems. After a one empowerment it is better by far to cast hidden in snow than empower another of your other mages in death or earth. If you get an E2 guy you can then get trolls or whatever.

Also, I find the kokythiad less sexy (she is actually fear inspiring ). Easily killed by stray arrows and stuff. Stealthy though. And she needs waterempowerment for many users, wich is the same path as the spell. Simpler to empower in death only and use watergems for the casting.

[Kristoffer O]

> Personally, I'm not attracted by the mages, at all.
I'm LA Atlantis, often, and have w3d2 mages, quite a few with random air or earth.

> I don't want the whole rationalization for this spell to be the mages, I just want them to be the gravy. I'm interested in the Unfrozen/Unfrozen Warriors, thank you very much.

That, on the other hand, is a sentiment I can agree on. I wouldn't mind the spell being more expensive and more effective warrior-wise.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
- it is only through Laws and stern justice thet they are prevented from finishing their ancient task of eliminating the Yazatas and their descendants.

...and it came to pass that one day the unfrozen were released from the laws and stern justice which prevented them in there vengenance. They marched into the lands of Caelum and the Seraphim where in there very first battle where refrozen and buried deep in the ice, never to resurface.

Shortly, thereafter the kingdom of Mictlan fell and Totl was banished from the world, only to return as a feebleminded tartarian to serve as Lord Flashearts jester...

[PvK]

I see Zath's line of argument, but it's overstated and focused on one perspective. The mages are not the only valuable units produced, and you'll generally get several mages in the effort used to get an E2 or E3. Saying the other mages and troops aren't "worthwhile" is a narrow argument. Even if your main purpose is to get an E2-3 mage, the fact that you get other mages and troops doesn't mean they have zero value. The chance that you may get more mages and units than you expect, or that you may get them sooner or cheaper, also has value - it just depends on whether you choose that value, or whether you prefer sure things, which is a preference, not an absolute value. As for "just empowering a mage" in Earth magic, that's not so easy when you are a nation who lacks earth magic, and it results in an existing mage getting better, not getting a bunch of other mages and unique troops as part of the deal.

From a balance and flavor perspective, I'd say it's good that it is uncertain and has significant cost, because otherwise any nation able to cast Hidden In Snow could be considered to also have E2-3 magic, which would blur the distinct strengths and weaknesses of the nations' path variety.

I like the idea of making it more expensive and giving more of the unfrozen troops.