Esoteric Roman v. Greek Ranting (was Philosophers)

[SelfishGene]

Heh.

You vastly underestimate the construction prowess of the Romans - they were civic engineers on a scale the Greeks could only dream of.

And the Greeks were never able to set aside their love of fratricadal or civic conflicts even in the face of a conquering enemy, and it's no coincidence the "great" Byzantine military Emperors were not Greeks but Anatolians and Armenians. .

[noname]

I thought I said this was done with... anyway, the Romans had a larger amount of land under control under one political order than any Greek or Macedonian ever did (with the exception of Alexander the Great.) That's how they were able to build such monumental roads and aquaducts. Most Byzantine Emperors were indeed Greek, and even the ones who weren't were under the influence of Greek culture. Oh, and the Greeks did set aside their differences when faced with the Persian threat under Xerxes (31 Greek city-states and regions fought together against the Persians, even though the Persians did have some small number of traitorous Greeks to assist them.)

P.S. Are we done yet??

[Tichy]

noname: I don't know about the Roman v. Greek debate, but I do know that you're accepting Plato's account of the Sophists as gospel. Socrates is a complicated figure: Able warrior, stonemason, but also client of the moneyed, landowning (anti-democratic, pro-spartan) class of which Plato was a member, that possibly subsidized his langourous gadflying about the city and invited him to exclusive parties like the one fictionally depicted in the Symposium.

One problem is that 'philosopher' in ancient greece meant different things at different times (and to different people with different political interests). Think of Diogenes living in his tub, "no dogs or philosophers allowed," etc. To many it was synonymous with penniless bum, or skygazing goofball, such as Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates in The Clouds. The pro-philosophy anti-sophist side had their idealized image of the philosopher and jaundiced image of the sophist, and vice-versa. But even Plato recognizes that sophists like Gorgias teach a particular skill -- persuasive public speaking -- and only gives them the caricature treatment when they claim to teach "wisdom" that's more than a useful skill.

[noname]

Pro-Spartan? Socrates fought the Spartans at Delium and Amphipolis and opposed the thirty tyrants which were pro-spartan. When Socrates was sent to get Leon of Salamis by the tyrants, he simply went home. This behavior does not look like that of a pro-spartan individual. As for public speaking, Plato said that philosophy was the only suitable rhetoric. As for the true image of Socrates... well, he left no writings, but both Plato and Xenophon seem to agree that Socrates was no enemy of democracy.

Socrates was even a part of a citizen's council which had to try some generals for failing to collect the bodies of the dead after battle, and the rest of the council wanted to try them as a single unit, rather than as individuals (the laws of Athens stated that each person must be tried individually .) Socrates was the only one who wanted to obey the democratic laws, even if it meant that he would be unpopular as a result. I find it hard to believe that Socrates and/or Plato were truly anti-democratic. Just look at some of these quotes:

"Because of the liberty which reigns there, they have a complete assortment of constitutions; and he who has a mind to establish a State, as we have been doing, must go to a democracy as he would to a bazaar at which they sell them, and pick out the one that suits him; then, when he has made his choice, he may found his State." -- The Republic

"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

P.S. These forums are supposed to be about the game, not philosophy or history. While this conversation is all and good, it would be best if we could stick to the topic. I know this sounds odd, but it would be best if we let this tangent die off with this post.

[Tichy]

I didn't say that Socrates himself was pro-spartan or anti-democratic. He is presented in all of Plato's dialogues as acting on principles of justice that rise above any particular political interest. It's just that those who championed *him* had political interests, arguably pro-spartan. Members of Plato's family who are treated very gently in the dialogues (Charmides, Critias) were in the "thirty tyrants".

You're using Plato's Apology as your primary source for an account of Socrates' beliefs and actions here, and I'm arguing that Plato has his own motivations for using Socrates, with his reputation for sincerity and principled conduct, as his mouthpiece. It's rhetorically smart to claim that people with a reputation for rising above particular interests happen to agree with your particular interests. The Apology is likely closer to Socrates' own views than anything else in Plato's oeuvre, but it's still Plato's words.

Aside from this, it's obvious that Plato is no friend of democracy -- at least as practiced in Athens in his time. Read the rest of the Republic: Democracy is the second-worst kind of government, second only to tyranny. And look more closely at your long quote: We go to a democracy as to a bazaar, but then once we discover the best kind of state, we found it and run it. The ideal state Plato describes in the Republic is not democratic in the least, nor is the state he describes in the Laws. We should be ruled by those who know the Good, not by those who know how to persuade a crowd that will then go vote (hence the anti-sophist stance).

Now we could get into a discussion of just what Plato means by "democracy" and the form it took in Athens but that would be extending this thread even further in an un-game-like direction, wouldn't it? And since I like getting the last word, too, I'll also say we should really get back to talking about EA Arco.

So sorry for the continued thread derailment by a cranky philosopher. RRrrrt!CRASH.

[Rytek]

philosophers are nice to use in the early game when you are short on money. Once money is plentiful you will always want to buy an oried instead.

[noname]

"sigh." People who read Plato often have polarized views on the matter. Some people who read his work are convinced that his ideas have led to the democratic republics the free world has today, while others (i.e. Karl Popper), think that his ideas have led to tyranny. Of course, the states describes in his works were probably not actually endorsed by Plato, but were merely used as ideas to get the reader to think for himself about politics. Furthermore, there are multiple states described in the republic, some of which are better than others. Democracy is shown to be happy for a time, but is place just above the state of tyranny because it has the capacity to turn into one (like the Weimar Republic turning into the Third Reich.) Also, Plato was invited to join the thirty tyrants, but refused. Here is an excerpt from his seventh letter about democracy and what the thirty tyrants did:

"And seeing, as I did, that in quite a short time they made the former government[democratic state] seem by comparison something precious as gold-for among other things they tried to send a friend of mine, the aged Socrates, whom I should scarcely scruple to describe as the most upright man of that day, with some other persons to carry off one of the citizens by force to execution, in order that, whether he wished it, or not, he might share the guilt of their conduct; but he would not obey them, risking all consequences in preference to becoming a partner in their iniquitous deeds-seeing all these things and others of the same kind on a considerable scale, I disapproved of their proceedings, and withdrew from any connection with the abuses of the time." -- Plato, the seventh letter.


P.S. Are orieds better at research, though? And aren't they meant for combat purposes more than they are for research?