The MA Ulm issue.

[Edratman]

As a minor aside, why is there such a fervent love/hate relationship with MA Ulm? It reminds me of my trips to Japan, where everyone believes that they are superior to any and all other non-Japanese, but almost eveybody has a t-shirt on with the logo of an American sports team or some other American product.

No other nation gets anywhere the number of posts that MA Ulm does. I concur that it is one of the weaker nations, but the other contenders for weakest nation honors seldom get mentioned. Was Ulm a favored nation in Dom2 and players still remember that?

[MarcusSmythe]

Ulm is a good 'jump into' nation. As far back as Dominions PPP, its focus on troops over magic and formations over SCs made it very accessible to the new player, and gives it a very different feel than other nations.

Thus, alot of us have happy early memories of Ulm.

As another thing, Ulm is the closest thing to a nation able to just 'make war'. No mutliple blesses, no SCs and hordes of mages, no 'tricks'. Ulm has its core troops as its backbone, rather than a bless rush or a giant pile of mages+clams casting various flavours of 'I win and you all die, and I get gems for it'. Thus, its very different, flavour-wise, from alot of nations, and is appealing to people who like that flavour.

Unfortunately, its a flavour that just doesnt perform well in the current environment, so alot of virtual ink is spilled discussing the problems.

[Burnsaber]

Besides, MA Ulm is totally badass.

They fight terrible magical enemies with only steel and will. Like Conan the Barbarian, for example. It's just that their troops blow, unlike Conan.

From Dr.Praetorious
"Ulm is a nation of men, with human failings (and then some, but that's a distinct question), fighting against hordes of magic wielding demons, evil animated statues and malevolent warlocks, with only steel and sinew, and some magic available in a limited, supporting role."


EDIT; , stole Xietor's Conan analogy. Oops.

[Xietor]

You stole my Conan analogy!

Here it is from another thread:

I also agree with that concept-but KO does not.

I think mr should go to magical races like Pangaea-and to races that "shun" magic. Maybe their god is the god of war-the god of steel. Think Conan the Barbarian and Crom. Crom favors his people with great mr, morale in battle, prowess in battle-in return for not delving into magic. The forge ability ties into strong earth magic with a touch of fire.

A boost for Ulm could include limiting their magic diversity to 3 Earth 1 fire only, with a 10 percent chance to get 4 earth(petrify, earth attack), remove old age for smiths, increase hps, mr, and morale. This limits their diversity even further, but makes them stronger in Earth-which is thematic.

The nation of steel should not be subpar in combat to almost every other nation. I would give their black knights a 1h sword of sharpness as well. MA Ulm's warriors should be feared-not ridiculed.

The resource cost to make these units, and their slow speed, keep them from being overpowered.

[Micah]

Oh, Xietor, I like the sharpness idea, it's also completely thematic that semi-magical high-quality steel could be sharp enough to give AP. I'd much prefer to see the swords on a new unit instead of the knights, since they're still too expensive for their MR fragility, but the idea is excellent.

[CUnknown]

Since I am the only one defending MA Ulm here (I am the one "Ulm is not underpowered" vote), let me go ahead and state my case.

First off, let me preface by saying that Ulm clearly isn't a top tier nation. I'd say they're somewhere in the middle, but since I am their top supporter apparently, the truth is that they are probably in the lower 50% in terms of power. But, is that a problem? I mean, -someone- has to be in the lower 50%. Are they -so- unbalanced that you just can't win with them against good players? Certainly not, I've won with them before, and I've come in 2nd place several times with MA Ulm (well, to be honest, it was Dom2 Ulm). 2nd place out of like 10 people is pretty dang good. By the logic of "Ulm is compelte crap!", you all would have to argue that I would have won those games with ease if I was playing Vanheim, say, which I don't think is the case.

Now about the specifics Burnsaber mentioned.

1a)Ulm's troops are slow, both tactically and map-move-wise.

It is a disadvantage, sure. Balanced races have disadvantages. Tactically, this is not even worth mentioning as a disadvantage -- your incredibly cheap pin-cushion units are getting pinned. So what? I think you guys view Ulm's units in a different light than I do. They're the toughest and cheapest cannon-fodder in the game, they don't kill much stuff without buffs (such as Weapons of Sharpness), their real function is to absorb damage cheaply. Ulmish warriors do not hope to come back alive, their only purpose is to die in your service!!

1b) AN attacks and MR negates attacks make their troops easily counterable.

See above. If you are speaking about Black Knights instead of standard troops, surely, there are counters available against them. Again... so what? Black Knights are a great mid-game unit, but towards the end-game I never build them. They have their moment of usefulness where they can really turn the tide of a battle. When the counters arrive, you stop building them.

1c)Arbalests make normally high-prot Ulmish troops vulnerable to friendly fire.

A minor side-effect to having the best missile troop in the game (with the possible exception of Jomon's longbows). Again, see the "Ulmish troops are there to die for you" comment above.

1d)Their high encumberance doesn't synergize with the high protection value since it diminishes the lasting power that high protection presents.

I am just repeating myself here. See above.

1e) Their troop selection (while allowing different weapon combinations) only consists of high resourcecost, highly armored troops, limiting army construction, and making their armies predictable.

Why would you build anything else besides heavily-armored troops when you have them available for 10 gold? If this is a comment on the lack of early-game expansion power of Ulm, I think that is greatly exaggerated. Buy mercenaries and independent troops and you will expand with the best of them. You are guarenteed to get just about all the mercenaries for the first 10 turns.

1f) Ulm's troops have average morale (expect for guardians and Black Knights) and few means to boost it (see argument 6), diminishing their lasting power in combat.

Yes, this is a problem that I would like to see addressed. But one generally of minor importance.

2) Their weak mages can't allow them to be succesfull in mid and late-game. They're also borderline old age.

Ulm's mages are great! They only cost 140 gold and they can all cast Blade Wind and Magma Eruption! What else is there? I'm being semi-serious, too! Weakness of their mages is not an issue, but lack of magic diversity is. Ulm's mages are very potent at what they do.

3) Their pretender design is limited by being "forced" to take Production:3

Yes, but you get Production-3! And you can take Drain-3 to pay for it without losing anything of significance.

4) Reliance on resource-heavy troops limits their early expansion since massing their troops early is difficult.

It's not at all difficult if you take Production-3. I think MA Ulm has an excellent early game, as long as we're just talking about indies here. A nearby human with a bless rush can ruin anyone's day.

5) Their forging ability is diminished by not having a reliable Thug/SC chassis and their low magic ablity doesn't allow them to summon one easily.

Black Lords are actually pretty good thugs. If you gave them a much better thug than that, Ulm would quickly catapult into a top or second-tier faction.

6) No sacreds and priests to speak of.

So don't take a bless, this isn't a problem.


Done with Burnsaber's list, now to add some of my own points.

1) Spies + Lots of early castles = good

2a) Forging. Give any other nation an undispelable Forge of the Ancients and see how good they are.

2b) Forging for other people. You can make serious bank by selling items as Ulm. Or you can get tight with an ally by doing the same thing. Despite people's distaste for this, it really is a great advantage.

2c) Empowering and forging Blood items. Other races might want to do this, but with Ulm you are silly if you -don't- do it, it's so good.

2d) Research ability. Lightless lanterns put Ulm as a good research race. I think people don't realize how good the boost from these items are, and how cheaply and quickly Ulm can forge huge numbers of them. Combined with the blood stones from 2c) and the large numbers of castles mentioned above, and you've got yourself the ingrediants for a good turtle race.

2e) Little commander zap wands. I love these things. Given that you are going to have a large number of commanders ferrying around the huge numbers of troops you make as Ulm, giving your guys flame wands is a fun game. Later, you can upgrade them to fireball wands or the Rods of the Phoenix which are very powerful.

2f) Artifacts. Get 'em all. You know you've got the construction magic before anyone else.

3) Arbelests. I just wanted to prove my assertion earlier that Arbelests are the best missile weapon. Here are the stats (assuming no random numbers and that every shot is a hit.. which is of course false, take this with a grain of salt):

Weapon -- DPR (Prot 10) -- DPR (Prot 12) -- DPR (Prot 16)

Shortbow -- 0 -- 0 -- 0
Longbow -- 3 -- 1 -- 0
Crossbow -- 2.5 -- 2 -- 1
Arbelest -- 3 -- 2.67 -- 2

Anything with a prot less than 10 can be killed easily by your hoards of indy shortbows. At 10, Longbows and Arbelests are equal in terms of DPR (damage per combat round). At protection 12, Arbelests are head and shoulders above Longbows, and higher than that it's just not comparable, Arbelests are the King.

Arbelests have an additional advantage in that they fire on the first turn (not the second or the third, for example) so that your damage is heavily front-loaded. Therefore, on any particular round of combat, arbelests will have done much more damage then they are "supposed" to have done.

[Frostmourne27]

For brevity, I won't mention it if I agree. Yes, I know it makes me look harsh and critical. Sorry. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, although it probably looks that way.

CUnknown said:

1a)Ulm's troops are slow, both tactically and map-move-wise.

It is a disadvantage, sure. Balanced races have disadvantages. Tactically, this is not even worth mentioning as a disadvantage -- your incredibly cheap pin-cushion units are getting pinned. So what? I think you guys view Ulm's units in a different light than I do. They're the toughest and cheapest cannon-fodder in the game, they don't kill much stuff without buffs (such as Weapons of Sharpness), their real function is to absorb damage cheaply. Ulmish warriors do not hope to come back alive, their only purpose is to die in your service!!

--> True. You can hold the enemy up for several turns. And... Oh crap. You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get. And when you run into an SC? DOn't even start. You can't petrify, you can't get your own, you can't really bladewind it, since it probably wears armour, and magma erruption isn't that likely to kill it. And, of course, if four high seraphs reduce your infantry to toasted marshmallows in two turns, there isn't much for your mages to do other than run like hell. A few distraction units, and you probably won't kill much.

1d)Their high encumberance doesn't synergize with the high protection value since it diminishes the lasting power that high protection presents.

I am just repeating myself here. See above.

-->You miss the point I think, and I don't like your 'cannon-fodder' explination, but this isn't a disadvantage. EVERYONE with high protection has encumberance problems, except for the undead, and they have other problems.

1e) Their troop selection (while allowing different weapon combinations) only consists of high resourcecost, highly armored troops, limiting army construction, and making their armies predictable.

Why would you build anything else besides heavily-armored troops when you have them available for 10 gold? If this is a comment on the lack of early-game expansion power of Ulm, I think that is greatly exaggerated. Buy mercenaries and independent troops and you will expand with the best of them. You are guarenteed to get just about all the mercenaries for the first 10 turns.

I fail to see how you will get anymore mercs than anyone else with order 3. With the above mentioned prod 3, you will probably be able to spend most of your gold on recruitables, if you want to. Ulm of course, may NOT want to, since mercs are better that your troops at least 25% of the time.

2) Their weak mages can't allow them to be succesfull in mid and late-game. They're also borderline old age.

Ulm's mages are great! They only cost 140 gold and they can all cast Blade Wind and Magma Eruption! What else is there? I'm being semi-serious, too! Weakness of their mages is not an issue, but lack of magic diversity is. Ulm's mages are very potent at what they do.

--> They're cheap 'cause they're wortheless. Compare to Ktonian necromancers, which are 200, and LATE era. Necromacers have MORE magic, can get three in two paths, and TWO emore paths than smiths (death and some astral - as much as ulm gets air). Which, theoretically, means that the other nations get weaker mages. LE agartha, I should mention, has troops not vastly dissimilar to ulm's.

4) Reliance on resource-heavy troops limits their early expansion since massing their troops early is difficult.

It's not at all difficult if you take Production-3. I think MA Ulm has an excellent early game, as long as we're just talking about indies here. A nearby human with a bless rush can ruin anyone's day.

--> As mentionned above, compare to pythium. Pythium has easier expansion and a hell of a lot better magic.

6) No sacreds and priests to speak of.

So don't take a bless, this isn't a problem.

-->This limits options, but isn't really a disadvantage. Black Knights are comparable to moderatly blessed sacreds from the nations that don't have awesome sacreds. E.g. Pythium.

Done with Burnsaber's list, now to add some of my own points.

1) Spies + Lots of early castles = good

2a) Forging. Give any other nation an undispelable Forge of the Ancients and see how good they are.

2b) Forging for other people. You can make serious bank by selling items as Ulm. Or you can get tight with an ally by doing the same thing. Despite people's distaste for this, it really is a great advantage.

2c) Empowering and forging Blood items. Other races might want to do this, but with Ulm you are silly if you -don't- do it, it's so good.

2d) Research ability. Lightless lanterns put Ulm as a good research race. I think people don't realize how good the boost from these items are, and how cheaply and quickly Ulm can forge huge numbers of them. Combined with the blood stones from 2c) and the large numbers of castles mentioned above, and you've got yourself the ingrediants for a good turtle race.

2e) Little commander zap wands. I love these things. Given that you are going to have a large number of commanders ferrying around the huge numbers of troops you make as Ulm, giving your guys flame wands is a fun game. Later, you can upgrade them to fireball wands or the Rods of the Phoenix which are very powerful.

2f) Artifacts. Get 'em all. You know you've got the construction magic before anyone else.

-->Spies and castles ARE good. Of course, marignon could get the same, and just as easily.

-->Forging: You do NOT get a permanent forge of the ancients. Your mages don't get +1 in their known paths for forging. They also get 25% off, not 50, which is the forge bonus, IMHO. Oddly, Ulm also has a difficult time get the forge up. Honestly, making it an Ulm national might go a long way to solving ulm's problems.

--> The rest of your points are valid, but assume you research construction, which precludes the above mentioned evocation-smiths of doom. Also, they aren't that limited to Ulm. Lightless lanterns aren't THAT expensive.

[DrPraetorious]

The dom2 history is worth a lot - people have a lot of affection for the nations that were in previous games. Also, people like Ulm for the schtick - which I think it is important to preserve.

Marverni is probably even more troubled than Ulm, but it is a strong magic nation, so the fix (better magic) is less controversial.

There is general agreement that other underpowered nations *exist*, but not what they are. I myself vascillate a lot:
- I used to think Bandar Log and MA Agartha were underpowered. In MP games I feel that I have been proved wrong IN THE FACE, which is the best way to be proven wrong, no question.
- I've lost a lot of respect for Patala. But it's in the late age, and I don't play in the late age that much.

That said, I think that Ulm and Marverni are the only nations so weak that some kind of fix is needed. There are other slightly weak nations, but good luck with a slightly weak nation puts you in a better position than average luck with a decent nation, so they are close enough to balanced.

For MA Ulm, I propose:
* A national version of Legions of Steel that benefits the entire battlefield - both sides. This punishes summoned units (natural Prot isn't boosted) to some extent, and is a good combo with...
* A national version of Weapons of Sharpness that benefits your entire army at once.
* A national version of Haste for your entire army at once.
* A spell that removes fatigue and possibly heals damage from your troops. I'm not sure how well the computer would target it so this needs experimentation.
* Efficient single target damage spells to deal with raiding supercombatants (and supercombatants generally).
* National spells that inflict feeblemind, to deal with enemy mages, evening the field in that respect.
* National spells that inflict detrimental conditions on hostile sacred units, so that they fight on an even field with your national troops.
* A national spell that puts up a City, lower research level and easier to cast than Wizards' Tower.
* "Mechanical" national summons for *non-combat roles* - ritual spell-casting, preventing bad events, protecting stacks from mindhunt, etc.

With this arsenal of spells (all located in Constr and Thaum), Ulm remains a nation of Men, but has the resourced needed to, at least theoretically, fight all the monsters and sorcerers on something of an equal footing, and with no changes in the army list *at all*.

[Warhammer]

What if, instead of wholesale changes, we just give Ulmish troops some reinvigoration? This would refelect their super increased training since they shun magic. Or, alternately, give them a national spell that removes fatigue from the troops.

[Sombre]

I think messing with Ulmish base stats is not something KO would go for. He likes only a slight difference from other humans - see Firbolg - bigger but only slightly better stats. Same deal with Ulmish - they get an extra 1 hp and that's about it :]

On the other hand, I think their special blacksteel armour could justifiably be 1 or so less encumbering, or even stronger, because it's supposed to be special and because the troops would clearly have trained in it often, building up the muscle needed to carry it around without tiring instantly.

I like Dr Ps idea to give them spells themed on legions of steel and weapons of sharpness (though not necessarily the exact spells he suggests). You could also give them a construction school spell which reduces enc, removes fatigue or gives reinvig, explaining that it reminds the Ulmish of their proud heritage and lightens the weight of the armour. Of course you can't allow the mages to go spamming this on themselves.

I think a standard unit would be fine.

I totally disagree with any suggestion to give Ulm a cheap crossbow unit, because then they'll just build crossbow armies with a handful of the cheapest tower shield guys at the front. Doesn't encourage use of their diverse (and sadly rather crappy) infantry at all.

On the subject of actually hitting stuff - Ulm could justifiably have superior versions of basic weapons. Blacksteel flail, blacksteel sword, Ulmish hammer etc. These could carry att 1 def 1 or whatever, representing the kind of quality seen in the Jomonese weapons.