The MA Ulm issue.

[CUnknown]

For brevity, I won't mention it if I agree. Yes, I know it makes me look harsh and critical. Sorry. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, although it probably looks that way.

No worries!

... You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get. And when you run into an SC? DOn't even start.

Let's see.. I mean.. Are there counters to Ulm's units? Yes. Are there counters to Ulm's magic? Yes. Why is that an issue? There are counters to just about everything out there. About the SC stuff.. I just disagree.. Ulm can both make and counter SCs and thugs. I'm not sure how to argue that point except just to contradict you, though. Other factions can get/counter them easier, but Ulm can certainly get/counter them. I'm not trying to argue that Ulm is in the upper 50% of factions.

I fail to see how you will get anymore mercs than anyone else with order 3.

Because you have far more available money than anyone else in the early game.

Their weak mages can't allow them to be succesfull in mid and late-game. They're also borderline old age.

Um... no? We just disagree.

As mentionned above, compare to pythium. Pythium has easier expansion and a hell of a lot better magic.

I'm not arguing that Pythium isn't better than Ulm.

-->Forging: You do NOT get a permanent forge of the ancients. Your mages don't get +1 in their known paths for forging. They also get 25% off, not 50, which is the forge bonus, IMHO. Oddly, Ulm also has a difficult time get the forge up. Honestly, making it an Ulm national might go a long way to solving ulm's problems.

I never build the Forge as Ulm because there's no point to it. Ulm's forging abilities are equivalent to the Forge, and I have other uses for my earth gems.

[Panpiper]

CUnknown said:I never build the Forge as Ulm because there's no point to it. Ulm's forging abilities are equivalent to the Forge, and I have other uses for my earth gems.

In my experience, the forge bonus of the smiths stacks with the forge bonus of the global, making items that much less costly in terms of gems. The bonus of plus one to the caster spell level for the purposes of forging also saves you from having to do that one last empowering on each of your specialty smiths, which saves a lot of gems, far more gems get saved from this that are spent on casting the global.

The idea of making that spell a national spell for Ulm is interesting. I rely (completely) on forging to keep Ulm competitive (though I only play SP).

[Xietor]

good infantry.


Bad infantry-look at ulm.

Pangaea's infantry is not the best, but it is solid. 23 resources. 13 gold. 14 defense. Some of Ulm's infantry have defenses of 5 and 7. difference of 4 in mr. Pangaea has more hps.

Also MA Pangaea can boost the average morale of their infantry with their priests. Ulm cannot. And with recuperation, pangaea's infantry are much more likely to be useful after 4 or 5 battles and have experience stars that boost morale and stats.

Then we could compare the Black Knight to the Centaur Cataphract. The centaur is cheaper, and its recuperation and mr make it the more desirable unit. 32 resources v a whooping 68 resources. 40 gold v 55. 20 hps to 15. 13 mr to 9. Same str, same defense. Knight has 1 more protection, 2 better attack and a bit more punch to its attacks. Knight has 15 morale to 11 for pangaea's.

Ulm, the nation of steel, seems to be weak melee v melee. And that should not be. And I will not even compare arcos infantry to ulm's. And Arcos has elephants and good magic.

[Valandil]

I was hoping that would be a hoburg. You disappoint me.

As regards to Ulmish forging:
Err? You have a 25% discount on forging with an E2 F1 mage. This is in no way, shape, or form equivalent to forge of the ancients, which is twice as effective, and gives +1 in all known paths.

However, with a dwarven hammer, and the forge, master smiths can make items for free. This is usefull.

Ulm has no particular expansion ability compared to any nation except Agartha (and a few others, I guess).

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

A couple points with regards to the Pangean comparison...

'difference of 4 in MR'
Although it requires research in Thau 5, Ulm gets the amazingly inexpensive "Tempering the Will", providing all your units +4 MR. Because of its low fatigue, you can cast it even with a level 2 earth mage, even if you don't research conjuration or construction ... though that is a bit unlikely.

And while Thau 5 is a bit pricey, at a aggregate cost of 620, it can fit in your research budget easily, later on.

The defense hurts... but Ulm can get Tower Shields. While they're fairly easy to bypass in melee...

Shield (Pan) 4 parry
Tower Shield (Ulm) 7 parry

attacker generally rolls DRN+6
At the start of a battle, before melee causes fatigue...
Pan: 10+DRN (Diff of 4, or 18%)
Ulm: 16+DRN (Diff of 10, or 3%) CORRECTION EDIT

I am curious what spells these missile hit mathematics apply to. Blade of wind certainly, possibly even fire spells... Page 77 certainly implies that many fire spells count as missile weapons, though I don't know about splash damage. Can a shield parry lightning?

Anyways, before you even factor protection into the equation, you're getting hit only half as much, even by crossbows.

The cost for Infantry of Ulm (not Black Plate)? 10, 26. The lack of recuperation is notable, but where as the hoplite has a dinky little spear (dam3), Ulm has access to various weapons. The one I'm looking at has a hammer, with 7 damage.
Attack, Prot
Pan/Ulm 14+DRN versus 17+DRN
Ulm/Pan 18+DRN versus 15(body)+DRN

This is balanced by the variety of factors the Satyr Hoplite has in its advantage, such as defence and recuperation. And while the encumberance is equal (8) with these two units, fatigue decreases defense twice as fast as attack, which works in Ulm's favor in this matchup. In this particular matchup with the shield we get a defense of 11, which while inferior isn't as dramatically ineffective as a defense of five, especially while facing an attack of 11.

A small correction to Valandil. According to what I've read off of the forum, there is no free forging. The minimum is 10% cost.

I don't have enough Ulm or Pangaea experience to say who has the better infantry, but it isn't quite as one sided as you make it seem.

MA Pangaea generally has much inferior weaponry for a similar cost. I mean, EA Agartha uses spears... And we know what a super power their strong and hearty Pale Ones are. The War Minotaur is another story and price range, but spears really are of little comparison to the advantages of hammers and morningstars. Can someone refresh me as to what flails and morningstars, have as a special ability? I've forgotten.

EDIT:

--> True. You can hold the enemy up for several turns. And... Oh crap. You can blade wind, if you forewnet construction, got conjuration 2, AND evocation 4. Not impossible, but arrow fend makes this totally useless. Also, BW is crap against anything with prot over 15, and weak vs. 12-15. You really need better stuff. Like Magma eruption, except that its even harder to get.

Really, you don't need conjuration 2 for Blade Wind or Magma Eruption. You don't have a heck of a lot to spend gems on other then forging. At a measly 30 fatigue, you can spend a single gem on it. With Blade Wind, you can boost your path temporarily with one gem. Not economical in the long run, but in the short term, Blade Wind and Magma Eruption are viable even without booster magic or items. In fact, you can think of one pair of earth boots as being equal to 7 Magma Eruptions.

It's even more costly, but you also have access to fire three spells with a gem cost of 2 or less in combat. Pheonix Power can be cast with a spare gem, taking you up to two, and thereafter, you can cast 22 damage, ap flame bolts for hardened targets with Evo 1. Very late game, after you've capped construction, you can cast Pillar of Fire for 20 fatigue (f2) at Evo 8. 34 Armor piercing damage will threaten even a cyclops pretender.

As no one expects to need magic resistance against Ulm, you may even be able to pull of something with Hydrophobia, also an extremely inconvenient Thau 8. It's also more effective in a hostile empire with positive magic scales for a penalty to MR.

More practically speaking, Rage and Prison of Fire are also along the research path to Tempering the Will. They aren't world shattering, but they are effectively research free, unless you're ignoring Tempering the Will.

If you ARE going for BladeWind and summon Earth Power (EP first), you'll get Pheonix Power as well, and plenty of fire spells will be opened up along the way.

As well, you have Destruction, Strength of Giants, and Legions of Steel readily available. early. Making their fewer attacks that hit much more deadly, and more survivable.

Yes, Ulm's magic variety and power still is quite poor. But you do have a few more options available at all stages of the game than just Blade Wind and Magma Eruption. The magical victory still goes to other nations.

[Chris_Byler]

I think Ulmish troops need either a few more points of skill, or a slight reduction in blacksteel armor encumbrance/defense penalties, or both. If that isn't enough, maybe a couple more HP and another point of strength.

If they're only going to do one thing well, let them do it *really* well.

A national spell that gives a squad of troops/all friendly troops 50% resistance to all elements would be very nice, too. They have Tempering the Will to counter MR-negates spells, but nothing much to deal with Falling Fires/Frost or Orb Lightning (the regular counters to those elements require paths Ulm doesn't get easily). I realize this would basically duplicate Gaea's Blessing, but - Ulm *needs* to be able to counter other people's counter to armor, because they don't really have a Plan B.

One way to deal with the morale issue would be to give them commanders with Standard. If Strategoi and Legati Legionarum (if that's the correct plural, been a long time since I took Latin) can lead their men to greater valor, I don't see why Ulmsmen can't learn to command that well too.

A way to get enough Nature magic for Relief would be nice too, but might be too big a change to the nation because of all the other applications that nature magic would have.

[Cor2]

For me the problem would be solved by rasing the castle resource bonus from 25% to say 75%.

My complaint is not the MR or the slowness, I see that as central to the theme. My problem is I cannot crank out enough troops to keep up early game.

Should be pretty easy to mod, I might do that.

[Sombre]

You know it's sort of like putting a band aid on a festering axe wound, but Ulm could simply have their resource bonus in forts increased. It's currently 25% I believe. If it was 50% they would at least be able to produce their troops in bulk and some people might be tempted away from prod 3.

[Panpiper]

Valandil said:
However, with a dwarven hammer, and the forge, master smiths can make items for free. This is usefull.

Er... With the Forge of the Ancients cast and no other equipment in hand, my master smith makes a Cloak of Invulnerability for 30 earth gems. If he equips a dwarven hammer, it costs him 20 gems. If I give him the Hammer of the Forge Lord, it cost him 10 gems. In no case is it free. The bonuses stack, but it is not purely additive.