90th Division remarks *DELETED*

[PanzerBob]

Good day, Chuckforth

I guess my explanation is a little unclear.

Within the country codes and with unit codes there things written in to these that make them specifically what they are.

EG: a "Infgruppe SS" has many things that make it so, The Country Code makes it German, as does the unit code makes it a Waffen SS Rifle Squad. These codes impart German Waffen SS attributes to that unit, some of which may be date dependant.

If it was a Heer Infgruppe it would have a German code & Rifle Squad code, making it a Heer Infgruppe, with none of the extra things that a SS Unit would have associated with it.

The Pz Gren code gives those troops better working with APC attributes as another example.

With the Japanese country code the attribute which causes them not to surrender is built in there.

With the Russians within their Country Code is a date dependent overall abilities attribute, which improves as the war marches on.

And a last example, but not least, is the US Regular Army troops. They have a similar code attribute to the Russians, which sees them become better as the war marches on.

Now I'm not privy to all the things written into the codes to make various countries troops behave historically, but, I do know from experience that I can see a difference in how Canadian troops behave and British troops do even.

If these codes were not there, the game play would be pretty flat knowing the Green US Troops can fight the same as Elite German troops.

If this doesn't explain it then maybe we can ask the MOD's to explain it more plainly.......or maybe this is all in my head in that case, maybe it's time to quit playing SP.

Prosit!

[narwan]

Hmm, I think you're reading to much into this. There are some nation specific abilites but as far as I know it's not nearly as elaborate as you think it is. It would be extremely hard to quantify and judge. Experience and morale are basically what drives the fighting abilities of a unit (besides their gear off course). So I don't know what to make of your remark that "If these codes were not there, the game play would be pretty flat knowing the Green US Troops can fight the same as Elite German troops" as GREEN troops (exp<60) obviously don't fight the same as ELITE troops (exp>80).

Country specific code elements are things like the japanese and marines 'no surrender' ability. Hmm, can't really think of another country specific ability I know off actually. Nor can I think of any special things associated with a german unit being SS as opposed to those from other branches, besides the above mentioned exp and morale scores.
Those scores do fluctuate between years illustrating overall developments.

There are bonus' to specific types of formations like the Ghurka's bonus to melee combat and (not completely sure though, I'd have to check) mech infantry getting a bonus to their armor skill score. But that's about it. If there's more it would be new to me...

[chuckfourth]

Hi PanzerBob,
So checking the leavenworth Article, Baggypants article and as an example, the performances of the American 90th and German 91st divisions. I would have thought American Morale (Rallying) should be lower than the Germans in 44. German Divisions were still performing well if not Miracles on all fronts throughout 44 and the vast majority had seen plenty of action and had excellent leadership. American Divisions in Pacific and Italy have no doubt by 1944 made up for there poor training through hard experience, but there is still the New American units that landed in NW europe and apparently underperformed. ie put simply I imagine their training wasnt hard enough to prepare them for what was to come. So considering all theatres I cant see that American Morale, ie Rallying, ie Leadership, should be higher than German in 44.

Best Regards Chuck.

[PanzerBob]

See my "Hardwired" Country Atributes Thread.
Prosit!

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants

[Marek_Tucan]

It'd be interesting to see how would Germans cope with assaults of prepared Allied positions in the Bocage.

[PatG]

Marek_Tucan said:
It'd be interesting to see how would Germans cope with assaults of prepared Allied positions in the Bocage.

Set it up and play it.

[Marek_Tucan]

PatG said:
Set it up and play it.

Meant IRL, not in SP Were there any larger attacks from German side against prepared fdefenses in the Bocage? IIRC Mortain was already in open country, no?

[chuckfourth]

Hi BaggyPants

I am not suggesting rearranging one OOBs morale rating based on one hard luck outfit.
The levenworth article clearly details poor performance
http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/car...er/doubler.asp
on a much wider scale. 90th division just serves as an very good example of problems due to poor training that I think were probably to be found in many/most American divisions/regiments. ie because they all got the same training. And of course dont forget Kasserine, same problem.
Thats right aggressiveness is'nt everything, but when you have some substantial advantages such as air, supply, numbers etc you should perform OK but if you then fail through lack of agressiveness or you could say, lack of initiative then that must be from poor training.
Normally when a section hits an obstacle and its a single fire position the corporal will get some info, place the LMG in a spot to cover the target and leapfrog the sections rifle group and scout group over the objective, same deal but more complicated for the coy lieutenant taking out a section etc. Now this is the British and Australian approach, and in the first instance takes about 10-20 minutes up until going back over the objective seaching the body and putting in a radio report, If you prefer to use the American "fixing attack" this can be a lot slower depending on your artillery availability, which may be one reason they got stuck in the bocage. And the enemy has the opportunity to "bug out" while you bring in the ranging shots and of course you lose the advantage of surprise.
The practice in most armies is to limit the amount of artillery support available according to the size of the formation being supported, this means you have to be aggressive or you dont get anywhere. American doctrine of allowing much higher levels or artilery support at lower formation sizes encourages reliance on artilley, no doubt saving American lives, but is slower. Allowing the enemy time to adjust to your advance.
The Germans had a higher proportion of Officers to noncommissioned ranks killed than the Americans, After losing and replacing officers such German Divisions didnt drop to green status, I guess because the replacements were usually pulled up from within the divisions ranks?
Your war college essay, emphasises the difficulties of the bocage, and it is good defensive terrain, but dont forget the closer the cover the more men needed to cover it. It sounds like the Germans had built the Maginot line in there but actually very few units were well dug in, there was very little depth and there were big gaps between some units. The Americans should have found these gaps and pushed through for all they were worth, a similar "missed oportunity" happened at Anzio. German replacements and resupply of course arrived in dribs and drabs and had to be thrown into the line piecemeal after being shot up by air all the way in.
The 90th wasnt reorganised it just had its commanders replaced.
Best regards Chuck

[baggypants]

Post deleted by baggypants