Dark Knight

[quantum_mechani]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:
Does archer decoying still work if you have fire none orders, or does it only work when you're set to fire closest?

It works with no order archers too.

[jutetrea]

I think items like re-animating dead with a statue are just a flavor of whatever nation gets that ability. I might summon priestly "goody" statues, they summon nasty dark zombie creating statues. Shrug.

IMO things like bogus's band of merry men are something that can happen to anyone. Capture and atainment of any of the units is a spoil of war, a specific bonus to those with the right paths (or that spend the effort to get into those paths, any nation has at least the potential), blood/nature only? Enslave mind/GoR work? Seduction? Using the associated orders are again a spoil of war, as K.O. said, kind of like new training as a reward. And its not really easy.

Fire mages isn't that powerful, nice if it works, but not more powerful then the right spell. Attack commander is a bit different, there are so many weak mages/ferries sitting in the back that the payoff could be significant. I'm still thinking that payoff should only be significant once, then its just another aspect to deal with like various nasty battle spell capability or a nasty SC/item combo.

Again, IMO - the archer decoy is actually the worst of the bunch as it takes advantage of something the player has the least control over - AI. Yes there are methods of dealing with it (changing orders being the easiest), but it can have significant initial impact as well.

I also find it ironic that some can declaim something as inherently exploitable when so much of the game is exploitable. I think soul drain/master enslave is exploitable - what are you really going to do against it? Darkness? Has a counter..but pretty nasty for a reasonably common enchant. Arrow fend against my archer army? Nothing I can do. Storm against my flyers, etc, etc... there are tons of things that can be considered exploits in specific situations - you can do something I can't counter or that the developers didn't anticipate. That's my definition of an exploit...and I'm assuming there are plenty of definitions. One of the reasons I find the game both fantastic and occasionally frustrating. So many things to do, nasty combos and such... but still enough freedom to TRY to find an answer.

[Xietor]

"Using the associated orders are again a spoil of war, as K.O. said, kind of like new training as a reward. And its not really easy."

Fortunately Ko's opinion trumps all. The issue is settled. Move along citizens.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well, juterea, I haven't done a thorough survey of reanimation, but here's my experiences with ea ctis and Yomi. I've come to the conclusion that reanimation is tied directly to whether a unit is undead or demon.

Yomi - Demon Priest (human): No
Yomi - Oni General (demon, h0+3) Prophet: Yes
Yomi - Dai Oni (demon, h1): yes
Yomi - Hannya (hannya, h0+3) Prophet: yes
Yomi - Telsestic Animate (astral summon h2): no
Ctis - High Priest: No
Ctis - Undead Lizard Chariot hero: yes
Ctis - Bane Lord (undead) Prophet: Yes.

[quantum_mechani]

That overlooks the nations (like ME Ermor) who get reanimation for all priests.

[jutetrea]

Xietor said:
"Using the associated orders are again a spoil of war, as K.O. said, kind of like new training as a reward. And its not really easy."

Fortunately Ko's opinion trumps all. The issue is settled. Move along citizens.

There you go talking in absolutes again. Its not settled. Unless the functionality is completely removed from the game it is a viable ability. If the game host bans it at the start of a game, no problem. If the players (and/or host) agree to its use, no problem. Any game can have house rules.

For those nations that can have indy priests re-animate, I'd rather have the 5 gems instead of the 50g - usually. For those that can't, it might need a house ruling although I don't have the experience with it to say how powerful it is.

[K]

I don't even think its an issue considering how easy it is to counter these abilities, like:

Fire Mage: Wear an item with Air Shield, or just put decent armor on your mages or put a few mages with good armor slightly up front. This is the same thing one does when someone uses the normal Fire Rear Command against you.

Attack Commanders: Put chaff around your commanders. When the attackers fly over, they die from regular missiles or magic or even your chaff's attackers.

Heck, when was the last time you lost anything to Bogus and his friends? Except for the turn he appears, I never take losses against him, regardless of the nation I'm using.


Considering that its far easier to kill commanders simply by getting a troll king and casting Earthquake over and over, or casting the Fire spell that hits the whole battlefield, or casting Foul Vapors, or Wrathful Skies, or any of the many other many spells that kill commanders and mages easily, I don't know why people are tripping.

I basically think that some people are always willing to call someone else's good tactic or advantage an exploit. Considering that some people swear that clamming and fever fetishes are a cheat, and Arcane Nexus is gamebreaking, and Utterdark is unplayable, and blood magic is for power gamers, and undead reanimation is unfair, and SCs are broken....people say these kinds of things all the time about just about everything.....and I just don't give them any credit.

[Velusion]

K said:
I basically think that some people are always willing to call someone else's good tactic or advantage an exploit. Considering that some people swear that clamming and fever fetishes are a cheat, and Arcane Nexus is gamebreaking, and Utterdark is unplayable, and blood magic is for power gamers, and undead reanimation is unfair, and SCs are broken....people say these kinds of things all the time about just about everything.....and I just don't give them any credit.

Complaining about things being unbalanced is not the same as saying something is an exploit. All the things you mention are in the rules and condoned by the devs. People ***** about them, but they don't consider them "cheating". Exploits break the written rules and are not condoned by the devs.

[Xietor]

"I absolutely do not think it is settled. I will use the orders on Bogus and his friends, in any game which does not explicitly state that it is not allowed."

No one has suggested you cannot use the orders on the charmed mobs themselves-it is copying them to the rest of your commanders/units that is the exploit. If I was unclear, it may be because I missed a post here or there. But I think Ko and LLamabeast were clear on that point.

It is the use of the copy order command to bring back the overpowered command that is the exploit. I agree that there should be some reward for capturing bogus and his friends.
And that reward is using them as they are.

[Lingchih]

Umm. What is the counter against Darkness. Sorry to get off topic, but I've always wondered, and have had my *** kicked by it a couple of times now.