A Cunning Plan: Trample

[thejeff]

Speed is figured in, faster tramplers can trample more times. Not quite as you suggest, since it doesn't affect the individual trample, but it has a similar effect on the battle.

[Lyzra]

I am not really intrested too much of units stats and all details, but on a broad perpective from what I can see is most trample units having immense problems at other fronts.

C'tis monster toads, elephants, trogdolytes and such all are not all that good at really attacking enough to be noteworthy at all. They all are rather pathetic on protection and attack skills if I recall right or not.

So on a gamebalancing side of it, if tramplers as troops would be easily counterable with something as simple as with spearunits via reach they would become totally useless.

Even now only problem people have to deal with tramplers are suggestions to avoid rushing to melee with them, use magic. Use ranged weapon options or simple smash them up with a big strong and singular supercombatant. I personally DO enjoy the trouble warelephants bring to my C'tis armies and send my monster toads to cripple them, even if they die.

[Zylithan]

I agree with your analysis cleveland, except i think you need to be able to get on top of something to trample it. A bullet has a lot of momentum, but doesnt trample. A chariot only tramples things it knocks down, right? So a chariot with a cowcatcher. I always put cowcatchers on everything.

war-donkeys with cowcatchers FTW!

[Autochthon]

Lyzra : You are essentially correct.

While Trample was not usually a dangerous weapon in and of itself, it was a powerful tactical weapon, a potent "crowd control" device that made disrupted formations easy pickings for the follow up troops.

That is to say that it worked in large numbers and with supporting troops for mopup duties.

In some ways, I feel Trample is the opposite of Repel in that the unit can actively force the enemy to miss their action, while Repel does that when the enemy tries to close.

Unfortunately, the current Dom3 rules make Trample far more lethal than Repel, and this is usually balanced by restricting the number of units that can trample.

But why complicate matters with a seperate mechanic (Trample), when you could pretty much use the same mechanic for both (Reach/Repel and Size/Trample forcing Morale Checks or lose action)?

Verrrry interesting...

[Fate]

This is a fun thread to read. I like the real-world analysis. There are two Dominions vs real-world problems I have noticed, however.

@Autochthon. Any unit being able to trample is interesting, though it raises many balance issues. First, units that have trample use it automatically, which is annoying if they had a better attack/spell available.
In terms of logic, size doesn't necessarily mean trample ability. Caelum has size 3 units, but they don't look heavy enough to trample Hoburgs. There are more examples, such as Niefelheim's size 4 mage. Should they be able to trample ulm's infantry?


@Cleveland. You have some very valid points. Unfortunately, I don't think they can be easily transposed to Dominions, because there is no calculation for velocity (AP's are the closest). If there were a good velocity calculation (like an adaptation of the charge mechanic), I would support the addition of velocity to trample damage.

[Autochthon]

One more idea...

We could simply use the mechanic listed above and have a base Unit Size threshold (say =>3), and simply add Trample for unusually bulky units that can reduce the Unit Size threshold.

So, for example, a Unit Size 6 Titan can auto-trample up to Size 3 enemies and thus cause them great confusion, while a Size 6 Elephant w/Trample (+1) can auto-trample up to Size 4 enemies.

As for flying units, I think it's safe to say that they can't Trample at all, or that they have a penalty to auto-trample (Trample (-2)?). Same goes w/Ethereal and other units that have an innately low mass.

What do you think? Remember, it's important to think of Trample less as a weapon and more along the lines of Repel. Otherwise, it'd just be too "imba".

[BigandScary]

also, in reality the point of a heavy cavalry charge was that it would trample the troops before it. The mechanics for cavalry are not very good in dom3 for this reason. The main power of cavalry is speed and kinetic energy. Speed is the obvious ability to avoid combat, but the kinetic energy is their charge. The lance would kill one man and then the horse would do the rest. Its movement would bowl over troops and crush those that fall beneath it while the rider used his forward motion and his height advantage to make crushing blows upon the infantry below him, preferably with a hammer or mace. The disadvantages of being mounted would then appear as soon as the horse stopped, whearas they are still effective in dom3 battles. I wonder if anyone here realizes how simple it is to kill a fully armored man on a horse. If you have a polearm, like a billhook or halberd, you can grab the knight and pull him off, onto the ground, where you will proceed to crush his skull with butt of your weapon. If you do not have such a weapon, merely move up close to the horses head, where the rider can't hit you. Then grab the bridle and proceed to punch the horse in the face. As it shies away grab the riders leg and pull him down. Another alternative is to hit one of the horses legs with your weapon and then bash it in the side. The whole horse will fall over, at which point the rider is really skrewed. Once it stops moving a horse is nothing more than a liability in combat. All in all, the mechanics for cavalry are not the strongest point in dominions 3.

[Autochthon]

BigandScary:

Arrrgh!
Wall of Text crits Autocthon in the face for 1452 points of damage.
Autocthon is now blind.

Anyhow, you are correct - due to the lack of charge mechanics and skirmish orders, it's common to have light cavalry sit back and shoot arrows until the enemy closes, at which time they simply switch to lances. It's unrealistic, but it'd be foolish to do otherwise until the above mechanics are introduced.

It's even worse for skirmishing troops, which all to often run up in front of the enemy to skirmish, then stand there and get run down by the main body of the enemy army. If there is no Skirmish Order, I'd like to see a Hold and Fire order in a future patch.

Another interesting point you bring up is the need for charging/trampling units to build up sufficient momentum, which means that they need sufficient distance to use such attacks. The Dom3 battlefield mechnics are not sufficient in modelling this, but I don't know of any sufficiently simple mechanic that will do this in real time, either

Hmmm...

[BigandScary]

sorry about the block of text, most of it is taken from my thesis on medieval infantry tactics. The whole point is the the greatest strength of cavalry is all based on movement, and, as you say, the battlefield mechanics are simply not up to that level of advanced combat.

[Humakty]

Yeah, and my pike wall is so much crappy, and it's principle ar so ovious for logical people I won't consider explaining why I find it so painfull to play as arcos mid or late.
An infantry well trained and prepared can wistand a cavalry charge without too many loose : Sikhs (india) have played a bad trick to english cavalry, without any polearms.
I think that if you increase their impact, you have to reduce their melee defence, for the reasons BrigandScary explained. ( a horse is almost never a 'dog of war')