OT A question regarding a culture I'm working on

[dogscoff]

Without addressing your points individually, but in answer to most of them:

It seems to me that the religion of your society is so tightly wrapped up with and controlled by the dictatorship that the average person within the society would have great difficulty distinguishing the two: Therefore something that attacks the State is also attacking God. Likewise, anything they regard as an affront to their deity would therefore be a threat to the State. This could very easily escalate into a "all that is not like us must be converted or eradicated" mentality. An atheist, for an example, would offend God by refusing to acknowledge his existence. By offending God he offends all Icarans, and would probably not be a popular person.

That's the danger of mixing politics and religion, which (imnsho) is where a lot of today's conflicts come from.

Of course, none of this means you shouldn't make your protagonists like that, it's just something to consider when writing them.

[Starhawk]

Wow I'm getting some good responses from you guys thanks

Okay so I do want an actual discussion here not just a one way chat so if it's alright with you I'll actually respond to your replies with more questions

I assume then that you are not including much of South Asia in with Asians. Indians, Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Indonesian... all can be quite dark-skinned. I'm not sure that the assumption that individuals with darker skin would be considered a separate species would hold. I would imagine that they would be considered inferior and/or evil.

I guess this isn't a major spoiler as it will happen in the Prelude but most of Asia/India was wiped out by a war that takes place at the end of the 21st century, only the "Sino-Indian confederation" survived because of their overwhelming populations and by act of conspiracy only "true chinese" left on the ships that brought the population that is now part of the Icaran Empire.

So yeah when I say Asiatic I mean primarily Mandarin Chinese.

Do you think that the Icarans would first try to run genetic tests on those of another race to see if they were truly human or do you think their reply would pretty much be a.
"Screw you" followed by much gunfire?

Probably not, at least not accept as equals. Tolerated, sure, but there will not be much respect there unless the other culture is in some other way superior (i.e. a culture of savants) to Icaran.

Well I sort of was thinking of having it that the average Icaran pittied those of a "weaker" culture and would sort of feel obligated to trying to "help" said culture (i.e instating Icaran physical demands on the new citizens). Would that sound like an appropriate response or do you think Icarans would rather just avoid them altogether?

Dogscoff (your post is too long to make a single quote )

Well I figured it would be dangerous yes but not from the viewpoint of an Icaran (which the story will primarily be told from) which is part of the reason I'm asking a lot of questions before just randomly writing

Unlike my short stories on this board a book would give me much more chances to actually explore Icaran culture and society so I want to have a living breathing culture that has some good and some bad points.


So some more questions for ya'll:

How do you think Icarans would treat a newly conquered human world by their nature (not by act of plot).

In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)

To the Icarans dragging the kids to barracks was seen as "saving them" while destroying the rebels was seen merely as "securing their future and that of the Empire".


How do you think an average Icaran would behave in their normal life?

I sort of had it that besides being deeply religious and very active physically they are a lot like us in that there are loads of different personality types, attitudes, etc right down to one of the main characters remembering back to what we would call "highschool" when he embarassed himself in front of a group of female classmates.

I also in my prototypes sort of had it that they don't usually actually discuss their faith (they see it simply as something that is and not really needing of a lot of talk).

more questions to follow

[Will]

Actually, dogscoff does have a good point about a tightly integrated theocracy. Not sure how much that would be the case, since there technically are two religions. If there would be a huge reaction against Atheists for denying God, it would be reasonable to think that there would be a reaction against the Buddhist-inspired religion, for essentially having a very different concept of what exactly God is. For there to be minimal clashes, there would have to be several individuals that follow the Buddhist sect in high positions of power, and the state operation of the "main" religion should impose minimally on the "other" religion, which would mean that a lot of the core beliefs must reconcile. That doesn't seem too difficult, as there would likely be a lot of overlap, and you haven't provided any details as yet that distinguish religious activities from what could be normal secular activities (i.e. the intense physical training for all).

As for the reaction to dark-skinned humans... I doubt the first reaction would be a blood/genetic test. But I also doubt that the first reaction would be "kill it!" Like I said, they would not be accepted as equals. If you're imagining Icarans being somewhat benevolent, I could see that. If there would be interaction, I would put it somewhere along the spectrum from being treated like sentient pets (with almost zero education) to a class of servants and/or slaves. The position on the spectrum could very well differ depending on location, even on the same world. And the sustain process would almost certainly be forbidden for any except "pure" Icarans.

[dogscoff]

Will has a point. If they can reconcile two official religions within their society (I would be very interested to find out if there are power struggles/ conflicts/ tensions/ resentments between the two religious sects. It seems likely) then there is a basis for reconciling outside religions too. Those religions, though, would have to have strong overlaps with the official religions- they may even have to overlap on *specific* issues, ie the core ones that overlap between the state religions.

What I would suggest is that you invent a word to represent the 'core' beliefs/ dogma that are common between the two state religions, and which therefore allows them to co-exist. In other words, all Icarans believe in "core". However half of them believe in "core" with pseudochristian bits bolted on while the other half believe in "core" with pseudobuddhist bits bolted on. Obviously all of these things would have to have credible sounding names and more precise definitions. That system sounds to me like the kind of highly rational and regimented solution your Icarans might come up with.

Maybe "core" is the bit taught in school, while the bolt-ons are taught in the home. Better yet, maybe "core" is taught to all first-schoolers, and then they move to a specialist "bolt-on" school to complete their indoctrinat^H^H^H^Heducation. If later schooling is specialised according to the student's abilities (this seems quite Icaran to me) then this could lead to interesting class divisions: For example, perhaps engineering schools tend to be of the pseudochristian variety, so pseudobuddhist-type engineers are less common than the pseudochristian ones. This imbalance could well be a source of tension (especially if it means one religion is less likely to be well-paid/ reach prestigious rank), which is key to any novel.

If an outside religion can be somehow reconciled with core (and the Icarans would probably make deliberate attempts to modify a 'conquered' religion to this end - it certainly wouldn't be the first time in human history) then that religion can be absorbed and accepted. If it's tenets are too far from the 'core' to be reconciled (ie atheism, perhaps polytheist systems, any system which rejects religious involvement in politics) then it will have to be eradicated- even if this belief system has significant overlaps with the "bolt-on" parts of Icaran religion. Obviously, any belief whose supporters are too resistant to change to accept the 'modifications' the Icarans demand could expect similar treatment.

I would also draw your attention to this extract from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage -
Major powers, such as Ancient Rome and the British who had colonial vassals, would especially receive many such political hostages, often offspring of the elite, even princes or princesses who were generally treated according to their rank and put to a subtle long-term use where they would be given an elitist education or possibly even a religious conversion. This would eventually influence them culturally and open the way for an amical political line if they ascended to power after release.

Given the ancient echoes you are trying to introduce into your Icarans (I seem to remember they have their roots in antiquity in some kind of alternate timeline) this strikes me as appropriate behaviour for them as a means of indoctrinating a conquered people, and also as a means of introducing foreign characters into Icaran cricles- this is very valuable from the author's point of view, since it allows you to write exposition for the reader, ostensibly for the benfit of the protagonist. Note that this kind of hostage-exchange didn't always work for the Romans: On more than one occasion the hostages went back to their people at the end of their stay and then built an army to oppose Rome. Might be worthy of your research, anyway.

In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)

I don't really know how the Icarans would respond to all this- presumably they aren't immune to pity (although conditining can do an awful lot to make people think pity doesn't apply to certain types of other people- hence all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history), and so some kind of dissent could be fostered within Icaran society if ever get to see just how just how grisly it all is.

However I can tell you how the victims of this repression would react. Again, this isn't new to human history, and the reaction of the repressed is always the same: For as long as some members of the persecuted group survived, and for as long as the oppressors pursue this policy, they will have to deal with violent resistance. To quote Iain M Banks:
"Outright destruction of rebellious ships or habitats - pour encouragez les autres - of course remains an option for the controlling power, but all the usual rules of uprising realpolitik still apply, especially that concerning the peculiar dialectic of dissent which - simply stated - dictates that in all but the most dedicatedly repressive hegemonies, if in a sizable population there are one hundred rebels, all of whom are then rounded up and killed, the number of rebels present at the end of the day is not zero, and not even one hundred, but two hundred or three hundred or more; an equation based on human nature which seems often to baffle the military and political mind."

Just out of interest, has Icaran-buddhism retained the "do no harm to any living thing" principle that is central to buddhism? That could make things... complicated. How would the Icarans deal with an 'old-school' buddhist, Ghandi-style non-violent protest?

Finally, have you ever read HHGTTG? They aren't really the same as your Icarans, but the people of Krikket in the third or fourth book might be worth your attention. They do share a certain absolutist, self-centred psychology when it comes to foreign policy. If you haven't already, read it. (All in the name of research, you understand.)

[Starhawk]

Will has a point. If they can reconcile two official religions within their society (I would be very interested to find out if there are power struggles/ conflicts/ tensions/ resentments between the two religious sects. It seems likely) then there is a basis for reconciling outside religions too. Those religions, though, would have to have strong overlaps with the official religions- they may even have to overlap on *specific* issues, ie the core ones that overlap between the state religions.

The "state" religion is The Path, the Neo Budhism is only practiced by a tiny percentage of the Icaran population, all of whom are descended from Asian populations. It is tolerated because it believes in "Heaven" and "purification" of the soul to reach "enlightenment". Key features that allow it to be accepted if not widely practiced in Icara.

If an outside religion can be somehow reconciled with core (and the Icarans would probably make deliberate attempts to modify a 'conquered' religion to this end - it certainly wouldn't be the first time in human history) then that religion can be absorbed and accepted. If it's tenets are too far from the 'core' to be reconciled (ie atheism, perhaps polytheist systems, any system which rejects religious involvement in politics) then it will have to be eradicated- even if this belief system has significant overlaps with the "bolt-on" parts of Icaran religion. Obviously, any belief whose supporters are too resistant to change to accept the 'modifications' the Icarans demand could expect similar treatment.

In my stories here Icarans ended up actually reconciling Jews into the Empire because Icaran Theologists could actually reconcile a handful of points that barely allowed them to be accepted by law as a legal religion.
Likewise however when the Icarans met Hindu's it was not a nice encounter because Icarans were outraged by the polytheistic nature of Hinduism as well as the fact that many Hindu's the Empire tried to convert merely assimilated parts of the Path AND Neo-budhism into their faith.

Just out of interest, has Icaran-buddhism retained the "do no harm to any living thing" principle that is central to buddhism? That could make things... complicated. How would the Icarans deal with an 'old-school' buddhist, Ghandi-style non-violent protest?

Yes the Neo-Budhists are actually forbidden to do any harm to any living thing, thus they never serve in the Forces, or Federal Security, they are also exempt from any jobs that involve the production and or upkeep of weapons or ships of war. They are sort of seen as naive by the Pathists who see the passive nature of Neo-Budhists as a weakness that invites death if it weren't for the protection of the Pathists.

Well their reaction to rebellion and "demonstrations" is rather in proportion to what is going on usually, so for an example if you have a group of monks leading a silent peaceful protest FedSec forces would simply walk in and arrest everyone as peacefully as possible. (it is a crime to protest the government in Icara and is punishable with anything from public flogging to death depending on what the situation was)

If however you had an Icaran army in say modern Iraq the place would be a mess as Icarans wouldn't mind blowing places of worship, graveyards or even TOWNS to hell if they continued seeing terrorist activity from said location. They also would have no problems crossing borders to track down and destroy terrorist cells regardless of political constraints.
They also would show no mercy to anyone willing to hide a terrorist cell and would pretty well destroy them.

Icarans justify this kind of behavior (as well as kidnapping the children and keeping them within heavily guarded schools) as securing the place for future generations to live in peace and be effective Icaran citizens.

Generally if a population that is conquered is peaceful the Icarans just take the children to schools and allow their parents to live out their lives without the Sustain process (the children are given Sustain) and if the world already HAS sustain type treatments then the adults are permitted only two children and are then steralized and their children taken to schools and then to seperate Icaran controlled cities.
Effectively creating two "worlds" in one.

But for the most part Icarans try and assimilate a society into the Empire and turn them into equal and effective Citizens.
And there are a LOT of perks to being an Imperial citizen, 100% sure you'll never be unemployed, universal medical care for all legal citizens, 100% equality with any citizen under the eyes of the law, assured of a place within the community and a sense of community.

[dogscoff]

Interesting stuff. however the more you reveal about them, the more I find your Icarans strangely inconsistent.

You say they are quite happy to kill entire communities as "collateral damage" just to wipe out a small minority of hidden enemies.

This proves that they place absolutely no intrinsic value on human life (despite their preachings about the human body as "work's [sic] of art to glorify their creator").

Also, they obviously aren't scared of stirring up dissent on a massive scale- this policy of forced sterilisation and tearing families apart would generate whole armies of highly-motivated, nothing-to-lose underground fighters/ terrorists/ insurgents that would make the PLO or IRA look like the cast of a primary school nativity play.

So if they don't see life as special, they don't care about pissing people off and nobody has a right to anything except free healthcare; why, when confronted by a peacful (but illegal) demonstration by a bunch of buddhists, would they risk their safety and waste their time and resources in an effort to "arrest everyone as peacefully as possible"? Especially when they are only they are going to flog or execute these guys later on anyway. Why not just shoot them all on the spot?

The glimpses we've seen of the Icaran criminal justice system seems focussed entirely on aversion by means of brutal punishment rather than any kind of rehabilitation. With the department of employment already struggling to find streets to sweep and dishes to wash in order to fill their "full employment" policy (presumably the government is actively repressing labour-saving technology that could do these jobs automatically) there seems little benefit to using criminals as slave labour. Bearing these points in mind, what's the point in keeping someone alive once they've been branded a criminal? It'd be cheaper and easier to just shoot the perpetrators dead in the street where an immediate and shocking example can be made of them to any onlookers.

Also, they go to extreme lengths to enforce conformity: Again, I quote the policies on kidnapping children and forced sterilisation, but to be honest the entire system seems bent on churning out an endless stream of factory-moulded citizens designed to do as they're told and not under any circumstances to think for themselves. With this in mind, why would Icaran society bother 'protecting' a sect they see as weak and naive, and who refuse to take on their share of the of the Empire's military risks and responsibilities? It would be interesting to know exactly how the special allowances in Icaran law that allow the buddhists to avoid the military were won in the first place (because they sure as hell wouldn't have gotten very far trying to win rights via peacful protest=-) and just how they manage to keep those special-case rights from being revoked. What happens to a Pathist who is afraid of going to war and tries to dodge the draft by changing his religion?

Given that military service "is considered one of the highest callings in the Empire and every Icaran shows respect to a soldier in uniform", surely those who reject such a calling on some "weak and naive" principle of pacifism would be considered a coward and held in contempt. I can easily imagine gangs of gung-ho teenage pathists sneaking into the buddhist slums at night, finding buddhists and beating them to death. The local police would of course turn a blind eye- After all, service in the police force would be as abhorrent to the buddhists as the military, given the violent excesses of the state, so the police would not look favourably on those who consider law enforcement below them.

[Starhawk]

Well let's address your points Dogscoff

You say they are quite happy to kill entire communities as "collateral damage" just to wipe out a small minority of hidden enemies

Note I said destroy TOWNS not necessarily the people living therein. Basically it depends largely on the extent of which the townsfolk are supporting the rebellious elements. If your entire community is a threat to Icara then it is neutralized.

For example Falujah Iraq (sp?) we KNOW that a whole hell of a lot of the population supports the local terrorists but we don't want to blow up the Mosque where the weapons and terrorists are hiding, we dont want to destroy the sacred places that they are using.
Icarans would have no problem dropping a MOAB on such a target and wouldnt' feel at all bad about it later.

Likewise if the entire town is hiding/supporting the terrorist elements Icarans wouldn't hesitate to open fire on an armed party of attackers regardless of the damage done to the town hiding it. If they kill a lot of innocent people it sucks but they wouldn't let it get in the way of their soldier's survival.

Basically to clear that bit up for you Icara's view is "while all human life is a work of God's art Icaran life is just a little bit more important." so in their mind it's not strange at all.

Also, they obviously aren't scared of stirring up dissent on a massive scale- this policy of forced sterilisation and tearing families apart would generate whole armies of highly-motivated, nothing-to-lose underground fighters/ terrorists/ insurgents that would make the PLO or IRA look like the cast of a primary school nativity play.

Well yeah except for that the parents would have to attack the very schools where their children are staying in order to even remotely "free" them and while it sounds strange to us the Icaran soldiers guarding the children would fight every bit as hard to protect those children as they would any of their own because by their mindset those children ARE Icaran.

For the most part a world's population is simply "left alone" as far as the Icarans are concerned, they are allowed to do whatever they want since they can't reproduce and their children are safely in Icaran care. Most of the people of a conquered world won't see an Icaran soldier again for years or even EVER unless they stir up something the government considers serious enough for FedSec or Military intervention.

So if they don't see life as special, they don't care about pissing people off and nobody has a right to anything except free healthcare; why, when confronted by a peacful (but illegal) demonstration by a bunch of buddhists, would they risk their safety and waste their time and resources in an effort to "arrest everyone as peacefully as possible"? Especially when they are only they are going to flog or execute these guys later on anyway. Why not just shoot them all on the spot?

Well like I said they consider all human life a work of art yes but they are concerned for their citizens above all others and the stability of their Empire over other concerns. So basically its one of those things that they'll do something bad to enforce the "good".

As to why they wouldn't merely gundown unarmed and peaceful protestors its because they do try to spare life as much as possible.
As far as why they would "risk" themselves, well against unarmed protestors a brigade of FedSec riotbreakers in full body armor isn't in much danger.
And why would they go through the trouble of taking them as peacefully as possible to flog them later? Well a flogging doesn't do any permanent harm and only a few cases warrent execution other then that your seen primarily as misguided and stupid.

The glimpses we've seen of the Icaran criminal justice system seems focussed entirely on aversion by means of brutal punishment rather than any kind of rehabilitation. With the department of employment already struggling to find streets to sweep and dishes to wash in order to fill their "full employment" policy (presumably the government is actively repressing labour-saving technology that could do these jobs automatically) there seems little benefit to using criminals as slave labour. Bearing these points in mind, what's the point in keeping someone alive once they've been branded a criminal? It'd be cheaper and easier to just shoot the perpetrators dead in the street where an immediate and shocking example can be made of them to any onlookers.

Their legal system is actually very harsh only if you consider a public beating and humiliation that is considered "all's forgiven" over YEARS in jail for a relatively minor offense.
To them a shoplifter deserves a beating and a public humiliation that he has to recover from, while in OUR society that shoplifter goes to jail for long periods of time.

To them a murderer/rapist/pedophile deserves death instantly upon the guilty charge being filed while to us said criminal rots in jail sucking up taxpayer money and gets to use an expensive attourney and a boat load of appeals.

Drunk drivers who haven't hurt anyone would get beaten in public and then taken to a hospital to clean up, we just throw them in the drunk tank and leave them to their alchoholic ways.

So yeah to them OUR legal system shows little mercy and is damned inneficent at that.

They pretty much consider the beating to be an "alls forgiven" and your records dont keep you from getting a job, or moving on in life.

As for the labour saving technology, yes to an extent any technology that would fully replace a human being is considered bad unless said tech can save lives. However because of this they actually develope labor ENHANCING technology that would allow a human to do MORE work more safely but not replace them.

Also, they go to extreme lengths to enforce conformity: Again, I quote the policies on kidnapping children and forced sterilisation, but to be honest the entire system seems bent on churning out an endless stream of factory-moulded citizens designed to do as they're told and not under any circumstances to think for themselves. With this in mind, why would Icaran society bother 'protecting' a sect they see as weak and naive, and who refuse to take on their share of the of the Empire's military risks and responsibilities? It would be interesting to know exactly how the special allowances in Icaran law that allow the buddhists to avoid the military were won in the first place (because they sure as hell wouldn't have gotten very far trying to win rights via peacful protest=-) and just how they manage to keep those special-case rights from being revoked. What happens to a Pathist who is afraid of going to war and tries to dodge the draft by changing his religion?

Not to throw out too much detail and spoilers but their rights were earned as an act of pennance by the Empire for an act they consider a terrible shame and blemish on their record.

It is enforced by tradition and conversion to Neo-Budhism is pretty much a no-no while conversion FROM it is considered a good event.

They are basically being allowed to die out slowly and peacefully but while still allowing the Empire to maintain it's dignity and save face and honor.


Any Icaran converting from the Path to Neo-Budhism would not have a fun time, especially if they found out it was because said person was evading the draft.


Basically the Empire has blended some Chinese sense of "honor" with it's western roots and when something becomes tradition or the Empire swears on it's honor to do something then they do it out of a sense of duty.