OT A question regarding a culture I'm working on

[Starhawk]

Also an important thing to remember is I am writing a society that is slowly evolving as well, some of the brutality is slowly replaced because as THEY assimilate cultures they are also changed slowly.

I wont spoil to much because I still haven't fully fleshed it out but if you've read my short stories posted here then you'll see what the Empire is STARTING to become (which is a more culturally diverse and just society although still rather mono-religious and still xeno hating).

They'll never be a culture WE would want to be thrown into as their justice system is still based on public flogging and humiliation for crimes (which they consider merciful since you can get back to life while WE would throw you in jail for years).

They'll still always be "state-centric" where children are raised in school as much as at home to be loyal citizens and good citizens (including helping and supporting one another).

They'll always be the "master-race" mentality when it comes to humanity vs aliens, and when it comes to their exercize regimes and fitness demands.


But they do have some very good sides as well and I think Dogscoff your just sort of blowing some of the 'badness' out of proportion BECAUSE it is a culture you wouldn't like.

For example the fact they consider their own citizens more valuable then other nations, well DUH every nation feels that way or else whenever a war started both sides would pillow fight for fear of hurting the OTHER guy's people.

The fact they respond to terror WITH terror is alien to us, but to them its a matter of "Show no fear and break them" where we have the "OH MY GOD YOU KILLED SOME OF US WE QUIT!"

Like i said I probobly misphrased some of their responses to make it sound overly cruel but for the most part they are just a tough people that believe there is no compromise with an enemy because so long as that enemy state exists it will make war on you again and again until one or the other side is destroyed.

As far as religion goes they see that as a major source of strife and hatred, so the state religion and a handful of others (all mono-theistic mostly Christian/Jewish in heritage and not taught in school) are the only legal ones to prevent people from fighting their fellow citizens over doctrine and destroying the Empire.

I mean thats the thing Dogscoff you seem to want to think just because they are raised state-centric and community-centric they are all mindless drones, thats not true and doesn't HAVE to be true either.

You also consider anti-demonstration laws to be OMG HORRIBLE but if you think about it how many "peaceful protests" turn into riots that kill people? Their government just doesnt want to deal with it and neither does the average citizen.

You also treat the draft as OMG HORRIBLE but there are nations today that have mandatory service FOR ALL CITIZENS (as in EVERY single ONE) but those people are hardly abused and simply consider it a service to their people.
So what the Empire might knock on your door some day and say "loyal citizen you must serve 25 years in the Armed Forces" in a society where you live to be 300+ 25 years isnt so bad.

As far as the sterilization goes, BFD there are countries today that impose severe penalties for having more then a certain number of children, the Icarans just see this as part of life (you have 3 kids as a citizen, 1 is automatically drafted when they hit 16 the other two can go on with life and you are steralized to prevent further children) the process can be undone if you lose a child or if an exemption is made on your part so all it really is is that you dont have to remember birth control every day for the rest of your centuries long life. When your average citizen lives for CENTURIES population growth MUST be controlled.

[dogscoff]

Also an important thing to remember is I am writing a society that is slowly evolving as well,

That is an important thing, I'm glad you've taken it into consideration- not because i think the Icarans need to be changed, but because change is interesting and change is what drives storytelling.

For example the fact they consider their own citizens more valuable then other nations, well DUH every nation feels that way or else whenever a war started both sides would pillow fight for fear of hurting the OTHER guy's people.

Well yeah, but there are still certain standards to which we today expect other enemy's people to be treated. Now obviously your Icaransd would never have heard of the Geneva convention but the principles behind them- and the consequences in terms of morale, escalation and so when those standards aren't adhered to- would still apply.

The fact they respond to terror WITH terror is alien to us

Not alien at all. I've lost count of the amount of times in this thread I've had to stop myself making comparisons with Iraq. I think I'll just add this to the pile.

[quote]
want to think just because they are raised state-centric and community-centric they are all mindless drones[quote]

Perhaps not mindless drones, but certainly heavily indoctrinated with state progoganda. I would imagine a conversation with an average Icaran to be much like a conversation with a USSR-era Russian: Most of the time it would be like talking to anyone else, but when you get on to certain subjects, their opinions would seem oddly divorced from reality.

think about it how many "peaceful protests" turn into riots that kill people?

A very tiny percentage. What's more, a lot of those that do turn nasty do so because the police (under orders from the gov) provoke violence and then blame it on the protestors. It's a standard tactic.

But even so, I gladly accept the risk of rioting as a price to pay for the right to demonstrate. Freedoms almost always come with risks attached. Still, its irrelevant how *I* feel about it, the point I was trying to make is that it is another sign of a totalitarian regime, and as such the Icarans would not be welcomed everywhere. But we've covered that ground.

You also treat the draft as OMG HORRIBLE but there are nations today that have mandatory service

Actually, I would support some kind of national service (as long as everyone was offered a non-military option.) I think it's a good way to halp people appreciate their public services. The only times I mentioned the draft were (a) to point out that one section of society being exempt is likely to cause friction and (b) point out that if it were enacted on conquered people, then that would be unpopular among those people. It's one thing to be forced to serve in your own military, it's something else altogether to be forced into somebody else's.

As far as the sterilization goes, BFD there are countries today that impose severe penalties for having more then a certain number of children,

Yes there are. That doesn't make it right.

Also, and this is just me looking at realism again, are such measures really necessary? Population does have a way of balancing itself out, look at the falling birth rates in the world today in industrialised countries: As people become more wealthy and the cost of raising children increases, people have less children. They want to make money and travel and have fun and establish their careers before having kids, so that when they are ready they can provide all the modern comforts to their offspring. What comforts are available in Icaran society, and how long does it take to earn them? Maybe people would wait until they get their military service out of the way first, not wanting to have a child until a significnt risk of orphaning it has passed. Also, a person might be an adult at 13 or 16 the eyes of Icaran law, but would society really consider them ready for adulthood, when they have 200-odd years of fertility left to them? More on that later.

Obviously your long life spans make a difference, but even with 200 - 300 years of fertility, I don't find it unlikely that most couples would limit themselves to a handful of kids, especially with advanced, high-tech contraceptives that are less prone to failure(*) than the methods we use today. After all, with all that time, there's no rush. You could have one child and devote all your time and attention to it until it's well into adulthood - although this means the child would be without siblings of a similar age, with such long windows of fertility there's no reason why a child couldn't be born at the same time as scores of its cousins, uncles, aunts, nieces and nephews. Family members might even plan to get pregnant at the same time, so that the kids can grow up together.

There would be exceptions in either direction, of course, but an average of four or five kids per couple over 3 centuries doen't seem improbable- bear in mind that by the time you hit 250, you'll have more great grand children than you can count anyway, so you won't feel the need to have more of your own, you'll be happy sharing the your child-raising expertise with younger generations of parents.

(*) To be fair, I believe most of today's 'contraceptive failures' are down to user error rather than a fault in the actual technology, but user error is still something that could be countered with better technology.)

Also bear in mind that societies not facing immediate resource shortages tend to encourage higher birth rates: More people=more productivity. It's not as if your Icarans have only one world with limited resources to share between their entire population, like we do.

Just out of interest, regarding the state control of reigion and procreation, are these things derived from their links to today's China?

Something else that I find interesting about your Icarans is that they consider people adult at age 13. It seems strange that you've extended adulthood massively for your Icarans, and yet shortened childhood. Given the massively expanded lifespans, in conjunction with it being such a patriarchal society (patriarchal in the sense of deference to heirarchy and authority, not necessary in the mysoginistic sense), I find this a little strange. Most 40 years olds I know today would regard a 13 year old as immature, and that's in a very open-minded environment compared to, say, 100 years ago. How do you think a 240 year old would feel? Even if Icaran law says 13==adult, I think older Icarans would definitely treat people so young with a certain amount of condescension, and all but the most exceptional adults under the age of 40 would have difficulty getting people to take them seriously. Maybe there could be different 'levels' of adulthood, enforced by tradition rather than law, with 'coming of age' rites of passage at various stages through life/ life events (parenthood, grandparenthood, 25 years service in the military or some other job.)

[Starhawk]

That is an important thing, I'm glad you've taken it into consideration- not because i think the Icarans need to be changed, but because change is interesting and change is what drives storytelling.

(the Icaran Empire of today btw doesn't come from an alternate history but rather 7,000 years in the future when the story begins with them set in a modern industrialized world and developing FAST with rival nations still on their new homeworld)

Aye I think so too which is why I've made this thread I want the evolution to seem natural and "necessary" rather then contrived and forced.

For example at their earliest stages on their home world they would be brutal and cruel as a NATION but it would be out of necessity for survival but as they spread out their "conquests" become more and more political rather then military and they slowly assimilate rather then brutally exterminate rival human cultures.

The one thing that I wont have change in the forseeable future is their hatred of aliens.

Well yeah, but there are still certain standards to which we today expect other enemy's people to be treated. Now obviously your Icaransd would never have heard of the Geneva convention but the principles behind them- and the consequences in terms of morale, escalation and so when those standards aren't adhered to- would still apply.

Aye this is true but we today see MASSIVE violations of the Geneva convention on both sides of any war right down to the kind of ammunition used (Designed to wound horribly rather then kill swiftly).

And to a people 7 millenia and hundreds of wars seperated from Geneva and on a world where your rivals are equally brutal and cruel in warfare the concept would probobly seem naive at best.

Not alien at all. I've lost count of the amount of times in this thread I've had to stop myself making comparisons with Iraq. I think I'll just add this to the pile.

Well WE consider it bad THEY consider it normal which we would find rather alien.

Actually, I would support some kind of national service (as long as everyone was offered a non-military option.) I think it's a good way to halp people appreciate their public services. The only times I mentioned the draft were (a) to point out that one section of society being exempt is likely to cause friction and (b) point out that if it were enacted on conquered people, then that would be unpopular among those people. It's one thing to be forced to serve in your own military, it's something else altogether to be forced into somebody else's.

Actually the Police Force, civil engineers, shipyard employees (ALL space based construction is government controlled and monitored) and even teachers are considered public servants.

And given that if by 16 you dont even show efforts at looking INTO a job you can find yourself pretty much placed in a job even if you'd hate it. And if you quit said job you must have a good reason or a new job lined up.

Also you made it sound like the government would be hard pressed to CREATE jobs for people, this is not entirely accurate as they don't OUTSOURCE ANYTHING to other nations which means millions of jobs that we today would outsource to other countries because it's cheaper they would keep at home out of a matter of LAW. Add that to the fact that when they finally do reach space they hit an industrial boom like we couldn't imagine today and you have tens of millions of jobs opening up that would ALL go to Icarans.

Also, and this is just me looking at realism again, are such measures really necessary? Population does have a way of balancing itself out, look at the falling birth rates in the world today in industrialised countries: As people become more wealthy and the cost of raising children increases, people have less children. They want to make money and travel and have fun and establish their careers before having kids, so that when they are ready they can provide all the modern comforts to their offspring. What comforts are available in Icaran society, and how long does it take to earn them? Maybe people would wait until they get their military service out of the way first, not wanting to have a child until a significnt risk of orphaning it has passed. Also, a person might be an adult at 13 or 16 the eyes of Icaran law, but would society really consider them ready for adulthood, when they have 200-odd years of fertility left to them? More on that later.

To answer the first part of your question, it would benecessary to control populations because:

1) Icaraverse space travel is still expensive and time consuming with the smallest interstellar ships being the size of a Yamato class Battleship and the largest being multi-kilometer constructs.
2) The Government controls ALL immigration and you have to sign up with the Colonial Division before you are even considered for colonization. (this is to control the potential spread of disease among other things).
3) Colonization is a rough industry a lot like those of early pioneers, with many colonies taking YEARS before they are made fully habitable.
4) It ensures the population doesn't outgrow economy so that you dont have millions of people born into a world with no jobs or industry even possible for them for decades to come.

So adding these together a world with a population of say 7 billion people (the poulace of the Empire when SUSTAIN was discovered) ALL OF WHOM have at least 300 years of life expectancy and most of whom are going to be having children and with space travel being expensive and time consuming population control IS necessary. And the sterilization IS the ultimate form of Birth control (especially since it is reverseable by time it is taken into practice with loyal citizens).

Just out of interest, regarding the state control of reigion and procreation, are these things derived from their links to today's China?

IRL yes, in-universe no. In universe this was born because of an event in human history (about 22nd century AD) known to Icarans (and many others) as "The Second Fall of man" or "The great damnation" or "The darkest age" where population explosions stripped the Sol system of vital resources and religious wars and the attempt to exterminate religions to "prevent the religious wars" caused the home star system to basically burn its self out. (The Icarans among others are the few "pure" humans that remained by this time and when they discovered a lightspeed drive in the early 23rd century they pretty much hauled arse out of SOL before the last great wars erupted) so its sort of burned into their psyche. The irony is the lightspeed drive didnt get a chance to work for the Icarans.

Something else that I find interesting about your Icarans is that they consider people adult at age 13. It seems strange that you've extended adulthood massively for your Icarans, and yet shortened childhood. Given the massively expanded lifespans, in conjunction with it being such a patriarchal society (patriarchal in the sense of deference to heirarchy and authority, not necessary in the mysoginistic sense), I find this a little strange. Most 40 years olds I know today would regard a 13 year old as immature, and that's in a very open-minded environment compared to, say, 100 years ago. How do you think a 240 year old would feel? Even if Icaran law says 13==adult, I think older Icarans would definitely treat people so young with a certain amount of condescension, and all but the most exceptional adults under the age of 40 would have difficulty getting people to take them seriously. Maybe there could be different 'levels' of adulthood, enforced by tradition rather than law, with 'coming of age' rites of passage at various stages through life/ life events (parenthood, grandparenthood, 25 years service in the military or some other job.)

Well yeah in the eyes of the law they are now legal adults, but they are still seen as having a lot of growing up to do (just like we look at 18-25 year olds today)

But yeah as far as what you say goes I was thinking of it kind of like that, given the lifespans getting your first job is a first stage of adulthood, then as you grow up and find better jobs or join the armed forces your seen as maturing.
When you marry that is seen as another step in the maturing process, then children and grand children.

So LEGALLY at 13 your an adult, but you have a LOT of growing up to do and you are taught all through school to listen to and learn from your elders.