Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN - Page 2

Evilhomer · #1 November 6th, 2007, 05:07 PM

For some reason you only seem to read and respond to some of the points made in respons to you. First of all as many has pointed out pd is not used very much in mp games among good players, simply because a mobile army is a better buy in most cases.

Also if you checked out some of the nations that has scored several wins (like EA caelum) you will find that those nations has abysmal pd as well and still managed to win. Finally what QM said is very true - there is just to few games played in comparison to the number of available nations in the game to start drawing some statistical conclusions at this point. The monkey nations has some shortcomings (where low pd is just one), but the nations is not as bad as you seem to think.

Lord_Bob · #2 November 6th, 2007, 05:24 PM

PD serves one purpose, and one purpose alone. It stops you from having to chase mageless, indie, mini-armies all around your empire. That is the only purpose for which it exists. The giants and Man's PD is QUITE CAPABLE of defeating a 200 gold raiding force at 20.

This is what is going to happen to the "awesome" 17 Indie Archer/1 Indie Commander raiding force against the "lousy" Giant PD. The Giants 2 commanders and 10 Giant Militia are going to take arrow fire and then reach the archers. They are then going to swing. At which point many, many archers will die. The Indie Archers with a morale of 7(-1 Dominion Penalty) are then probably going to route. At that point the giants will run them down and kill every one of them. The Commander will probably get away.

The Giant PD really sucks.

Oh yeah, EA Caleum is going to be PAWNED! By them 17 Indie Archers. They got some fliers, and you see, them fliers going to "stupidly charge" them archers and route them before the archers fire one shot. Them EA Caleum PD is OWNED by them Archers. COMPLETE PAWNAGE!

There is bad, and then there is hidiously ridiclious.

I can't even believe people are talking about Man PD. I have used 65 Man PD, backed by research mages and some longbowman and castle guards to repel 2 waves of 400 man armies backed by multiple mages from EA Ermor in the multiplayer game where I took over a messed up MA Man on some turn. MA Man PD is hidiously more powerfull than Ape PD. It is just plain mighty after 20.

lch · #3 November 6th, 2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Lord_Bob said:
I have used 65 Man PD, [...] It is just plain mighty after 20.

Yup, I guess I'll stop arguing at this point.

Hadrian_II · #4 November 6th, 2007, 04:41 PM

I dont think that weak PD is something that counts in MP so the PD of the monkeys has nothing to do with their weakness.
btw. Lanka has the same PD and is not considered weak.

The biggest problem with kailasa is that they are very suspectible to arrows, they have no armor and only bucklers on the basic sacreds, so your powerful armies can easily be shot to peaces by very cheap archers.

But if you survive into the mid game, you can summon gandharvas, and they are about the strongest troop in the game. Sacred, heavy armoured, awe and only 18 pearls for 6 of them.

Also you can summon Kinnaras that are able to cast arrow fend, and then even your sacreds that are recruitable everywhere become useful again.

You have also a national spell that gives all your sacreds quikness.

Then you have some minor benefits like S3 and H3 mages that you can summon and the rudra that has d3f3a3 and makes a very nice SC chassis.

And to the last all your summons are astral based and you have national mages that are able to forge clams, so if you survive the beginning, kailasa will become very strong.

I played them twice in MPs, and in both i was not very succesful.
In one i decided to invade vanheim as he had almost no troops but in the province i invaded i was greeted by 3 E5 bladewind spammers (Worthy Heroes can suck sometimes), and took heavy losses that caused sauromantia to invade me, and i was not able to get back on my feet.
In the other one i started between Nifelheim, Lanka and Helheim and this is not very funny.

Kailasa is for a nation that starts with a dual bless very weak in the beginning, but in the middle game (after conjuration, thraumathurgy and enchantment up to lv 6) they can field f9s9 blessed prot17 troops that have awe +1 and quickness and the basic unarmoured troops have arrow fend and die not so easily either. (w9s9 bless might be better earlyer, but as it does not seem that the quickness stacks, f9s9 should be better after you can cast celestial music).

I think the next EA game that i have time to play, i will try to win with kailasa again.

Lord_Bob · #5 November 6th, 2007, 05:11 PM

Lanka has maintenance free demons and undead as PD. Led around by their bloodhunting priests. Attempts to raid them with "200 gold force" stops when you hit the blood hunters and they kill you instantly.

thejeff · #6 November 6th, 2007, 05:17 PM

Again, nonsense. Your scouts tell you where the bloodhunters are, if you don't just guess by raiding the farms and other high income provinces where no one blood hunts.

Then you send real forces after the bloodhunters. Raiding weak provinces is fine, but trashing your enemies blood income is a real prize.

Lord_Bob · #7 November 6th, 2007, 05:30 PM

So Lanka can be "freely raided" except for the multiple road blocks that completely destroy such raids. These roadblocks cost nothing as they consist of priest that MUST be there, and maintenance free undead. Or maybe demons for some reason.

Multiple, Lanka Player Placed, Free, raid blockers seems to be quite a difference between them and the other Ape Nations. Also, since blood summons cost no gold to maintain, "Garrisoning" is a perfectly viable plan. And, of course, Lanka is a blood nation and the others aren't.

VedalkenBear · #8 November 6th, 2007, 05:32 PM

Care to respond to the fact that you have no basis for your assertion, considering the lack of data?

Or do you just want to rant some more?

thejeff · #9 November 6th, 2007, 05:48 PM

Those aren't roadblocks. Those are targets. Unless you've built forts or strong garrisons.

Even demonic/undead garrisons have opportunity costs. They aren't counterattacking/raiding your enemy. The mage is summoning not bloodhunting, etc etc.

And the other monkey nations have cheap priests for blessing and upkeep-free sacred summons right? If you really wanted to stop raiders, a couple of those in each province will stop your "200 gp force" dead.

VedalkenBear · #10 November 6th, 2007, 05:23 PM

To be short, blunt, and to the point:

You have no basis at all for extrapolating from the given data an unequivocal statement on _anything_. Having just had a test where I was required to calculate confidence intervals for several questions, I can tell you that you have no idea how unsupported your claim is.

Your statement is not supported by the evidence. If you made a statement like, "The Ape nations have not won YET because people haven't figured out a way to compensate for their PD being unable to stop raiders," you might get a bit more agreement.

You are making an obviously flawed argument from the subject line on. I would suggest a basic course in statistics before you try to make this or similar claims.