Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN

[Hadrian_II]

I dont think that weak PD is something that counts in MP so the PD of the monkeys has nothing to do with their weakness.
btw. Lanka has the same PD and is not considered weak.

The biggest problem with kailasa is that they are very suspectible to arrows, they have no armor and only bucklers on the basic sacreds, so your powerful armies can easily be shot to peaces by very cheap archers.

But if you survive into the mid game, you can summon gandharvas, and they are about the strongest troop in the game. Sacred, heavy armoured, awe and only 18 pearls for 6 of them.

Also you can summon Kinnaras that are able to cast arrow fend, and then even your sacreds that are recruitable everywhere become useful again.

You have also a national spell that gives all your sacreds quikness.

Then you have some minor benefits like S3 and H3 mages that you can summon and the rudra that has d3f3a3 and makes a very nice SC chassis.

And to the last all your summons are astral based and you have national mages that are able to forge clams, so if you survive the beginning, kailasa will become very strong.

I played them twice in MPs, and in both i was not very succesful.
In one i decided to invade vanheim as he had almost no troops but in the province i invaded i was greeted by 3 E5 bladewind spammers (Worthy Heroes can suck sometimes), and took heavy losses that caused sauromantia to invade me, and i was not able to get back on my feet.
In the other one i started between Nifelheim, Lanka and Helheim and this is not very funny.

Kailasa is for a nation that starts with a dual bless very weak in the beginning, but in the middle game (after conjuration, thraumathurgy and enchantment up to lv 6) they can field f9s9 blessed prot17 troops that have awe +1 and quickness and the basic unarmoured troops have arrow fend and die not so easily either. (w9s9 bless might be better earlyer, but as it does not seem that the quickness stacks, f9s9 should be better after you can cast celestial music).

I think the next EA game that i have time to play, i will try to win with kailasa again.

[Lord_Bob]

Lanka has maintenance free demons and undead as PD. Led around by their bloodhunting priests. Attempts to raid them with "200 gold force" stops when you hit the blood hunters and they kill you instantly.

[thejeff]

Again, nonsense. Your scouts tell you where the bloodhunters are, if you don't just guess by raiding the farms and other high income provinces where no one blood hunts.

Then you send real forces after the bloodhunters. Raiding weak provinces is fine, but trashing your enemies blood income is a real prize.

[Lord_Bob]

So Lanka can be "freely raided" except for the multiple road blocks that completely destroy such raids. These roadblocks cost nothing as they consist of priest that MUST be there, and maintenance free undead. Or maybe demons for some reason.

Multiple, Lanka Player Placed, Free, raid blockers seems to be quite a difference between them and the other Ape Nations. Also, since blood summons cost no gold to maintain, "Garrisoning" is a perfectly viable plan. And, of course, Lanka is a blood nation and the others aren't.

[VedalkenBear]

Care to respond to the fact that you have no basis for your assertion, considering the lack of data?

Or do you just want to rant some more?

[thejeff]

Those aren't roadblocks. Those are targets. Unless you've built forts or strong garrisons.

Even demonic/undead garrisons have opportunity costs. They aren't counterattacking/raiding your enemy. The mage is summoning not bloodhunting, etc etc.

And the other monkey nations have cheap priests for blessing and upkeep-free sacred summons right? If you really wanted to stop raiders, a couple of those in each province will stop your "200 gp force" dead.

[Lord_Bob]

So you are now comparing priest and gem summons with spending 200 gold(whenever you want, the turn before the attack is just fine) for maintenance PD? Are we even having this discussion?

[Reverend Zombie]

There is only one way to settle this argument: Lord Bob plays the nation of his choice vs. a monkey nation, mano a mano.

[thejeff]

Lord_Bob said:
So you are now comparing priest and gem summons with spending 200 gold(whenever you want, the turn before the attack is just fine) for maintenance PD? Are we even having this discussion?

I was comparing with the Lankan example you'd given. Should have quoted, given the flood of posts here.

Anyway, all these examples are silly. You're talking cheap indy attacks, not flying or stealthy or anything. So you're talking attacks along a hostile border. You don't rely on PD to hold a hostile border. You get choke points, build forts, etc.

Sure if you get blindsided, that crappy PD leaves you vulnerable, but that's what happens when you're taken by surprise. If they get behind your lines, hunt them down and kill them, but strengthen your border too.

When I think of raiders, I think of stealth/fliers and remote attacks. They can easily get into the backfield where you'll have little but PD. Anything that has to cross the front lines shouldn't be able to do so with a handful of indy archers. Garrison the borders. There should be troops able to reinforce any border province within a move or two.

[VedalkenBear]

To be short, blunt, and to the point:

You have no basis at all for extrapolating from the given data an unequivocal statement on _anything_. Having just had a test where I was required to calculate confidence intervals for several questions, I can tell you that you have no idea how unsupported your claim is.

Your statement is not supported by the evidence. If you made a statement like, "The Ape nations have not won YET because people haven't figured out a way to compensate for their PD being unable to stop raiders," you might get a bit more agreement.

You are making an obviously flawed argument from the subject line on. I would suggest a basic course in statistics before you try to make this or similar claims.