Unkillable aircraft!!!

[Mobhack]

I do have some code built in so that the AI will use any air en masse, once in a while.

That is because air in driblets is merely irritating - but delivery in a single fire-blow is the most efficient use of airstrikes. (I often use 1 sacrificial air pass to locate target concentrations, whack the revealed flack with arty for a move or 3, then use the remaining 5 or so planes in one punch on a juicy looking area, especially against a defender.).

The recce value of planes is probably a major benefit in the game, so if you have been overflown then probably a quick move of any stuff you are hiding is a good idea to break LOS, on the off chance you have been spotted. Some of the units will have been, and will draw enemy arty, or your ambuscade avoided etc if the opponent is a human player.

Once you have battered down his flak with your arty, and the planes have free reign, then after the fireblow, a scheduling of a strafing pass per turn or so is great mainly for the recce effect. That is the advantage of SP-AAA as even the AI will move its motor AAA assets, making them more difficult to deal with by arty suppresion, and catching the planes with fire from the re-hidden hidden units later (hopefully).

WW2 air did not really have much KO effect on armour, the natural target for fighter-bombers is trucks or open-topped halftracks, especially ammo and POL carriers in the corps/division etc rear zone. Kill lots of tigers by cutting the jugular vein of the supply convoys.

cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
Actually Ive always been puzzled by the airstrike planes recce effect. Aside from possibly spotter planes there is no real life mechanism for a strike aircraft to send information on the enemies exact disposition to the relevant ground forces. A typoon may radio back to the ground FO after leaving the flak zone that he saw some vehicles at the edge of a wood, and the FO may just happen to be in touch with the relevant nearby coy commander but it is unlikely. And of course the game turns what is a pilots vague report of a fleeting glimpse at 500 mph into the exact position and type of units. It it would be much more relistic if strike aircraft had no spotting ability.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

This game is based on a "spotted" flag for each item on map. Always has been since it came out. If one thing spots something, all in LOS spot it.

The alternative would need an array of [max units] bytes added to every units data and more complex code - but you as the "player God" would still be able to call arty on things in the rear that the spotter had no knowledge of. (That is the reason e.g. for the arty calling rules in the WRG tabletop rules, that limit impromptu arty fires to within 500m of a spotted enemy unit, or of a terrain feature your troops are advancing towards to pass within 500metres and are within 100m of etc)

The sorts of games where Bill knows about Hanz, but Eric and Fred don't (not until he communicates the knowledge to them "hes over there"! - "Not Seen" "3 o'clock from the small bush, 10 metres" - "Not seen!" - "watch my tracer" - "Seen!") only works in skirmish type games with very few units. And I have only seen such implemented in tabletop games, if at all. (There may be multiple-player shooter type computer section-level games where each player plays one man where this happens? - an ideal genre for such anyway).

All other computer games use a "spotted/unspotted" binary state, as do bored games and tabletop games usually have the tropps on table (bar ambushes marked on a map), though some tabletop games used paper chits, some of which would be dummys.


Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
very interesting
Not sure you have to go to all that trouble though, the Level bombers dont seem to spot much do they? maybe the air strikes could be given the same spotting ability as the level bombers? ie close to 0. Seems to me spotting ability can vary with class? ie spotting ability is maybe a variable?
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Bombers do not spot much - since they are way up high.

Planes spot, since they are down in the weeds, and need the ability to actually find targets..

Andy

[Deputy]

Well I have no problems eating crow, and in this case I will do so gladly . After more testing and game experience, I agree that the planes aren't carrying "death ray bombs and rockets". I apologize for making that idiotic statement. I think what happened was I had all the Preference setting set at maximum for the US, and when I played a scenario where the US was player two, I got clobbered.

I do have 2 questions concerning hiding from air power and spotting planes.
1. Spotting planes... If I have my units in trees, do spotting planes still "see" them all the time?

2.Is it even worth pulling off a road and hiding in trees to defend against air attacks? Or does any overhead plane "automatically" see every unit below them?

[Mobhack]

If you are hidden amongst blocking terrain, you may only get a strafing area attack.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Deputy said:

I do have 2 questions concerning hiding from air power and spotting planes.
1. Spotting planes... If I have my units in trees, do spotting planes still "see" them all the time?

2.Is it even worth pulling off a road and hiding in trees to defend against air attacks? Or does any overhead plane "automatically" see every unit below them?

It's very simple and better to test this yourself. Set up a test game where both sides are human, ignore the requests for passwords but you will have to save the game in a save slot. Set up player two with some units in the open as a test but set up others in the best concealment you can find then set up player ones spotting aircraft and airstrikes based on what you already know about P2's disposition ( attack areas with AND without enemy units ) then watch what is revelled when the airstrikes come in so use as big a map as possible so none of P1's ground units can see any of P2's units. When the air attack is over and the game goes to P2 you can check what you saw during the attacks against what the actual dispositions were then end P2's turn and recheck what P1 can now see then run the test a half dozen more times with different visibility and see the results.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack
I see,
So I gather then that it is actually "easy" to decrease airstrike spotting from a coding point of view?
All that remains is to establish wether it should be done or not.
Maybe you and I are are talking about two different mission types. Im talking about the mission where the ground FO calls in the plane to hit the enemy armour concentration hes identified in just the same way as he would call in an artillery strike. In both cases the information flow is one way. You may be talking about the "roaming" fighter bomber looking to identify its own targets. I think the roaming fighterbomber isnt really within the scope of the game as the maps arnt large enough. Opperating as close to the front line as it must to stay on these "small" maps he is just as likely to straff his own troops as the enemies, or get hit by friendly AA.
So I would think that most of the missions called in the game are Fo controlled and hence require no spotting ability from the airstrike plane. Assuming the target can be kept in FO sight.
I agree that the airstrike planes do need some spotting ability to pick up vehicles near to there targets or ones that may have just moved out of the FOs view, but I think they need less spotting ability than they now have, ie currently doubling as recce planes.
Another point I would add is that as pointed out by Deputy bombs are very inaccurate. For fighter bomber bombs there is probably an equal probability that the bomb will land in the hex before or after the target hex or even the hexes on either side of these, as on target.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

chuckfourth said:
Another point I would add is that as pointed out by Deputy bombs are very inaccurate. For fighter bomber bombs there is probably an equal probability that the bomb will land in the hex before or after the target hex or even the hexes on either side of these, as on target.
Best Regards Chuck.

We have already established that the aircraft in the game are not carrying "death ray bombs and rockets" and "Deputy" has already retracted his comments. Ordnance dropped and fired from aircraft already do frequently land in the hex before or after the target and it's not unusual for them to land two hexes on either side of the target.

Don